New Section 21 Rules (2015) For Landlords in England

Disclaimer: this could be deemed as a long and painful read, but it’s crucial for landlords in England to make the journey until the bitter end, even if that requires a couple of hits of espresso and/or the white powder. MOST landlords have either used and/or will use a Section 21 notice, so the odds are this post will be relevant.

I honestly can’t remember the last time I published so many blog posts in the space of 30 days. This will be my 3rd, which may not sound like much, but this is nose-bleed territory for me. I’ve been struggling to maintain a mere one-per-month frequency for quite some time now. As a percentile, my production rate has unwillingly increased by 300%. Perhaps a sign of progression for most, but I feel so depleted.

Understandably, this sudden surge may also be freaking-out some of you regular readers and subscribers. But I don’t want anyone to panic. This is just a very temporary blip, I hope. I know one thing for sure, I can’t continue operating at this pace because I’ll completely burn out.

That said, what the fuck is going on, right? Have I recently discovered a new-found passion for blogging? Hell no. Strapping myself down to a desk for the best part of 3 hours once a month, only to squash together some mincy words, is still a dissatisfying routinely struggle.

The real reason behind this flurry of activity is the Government’s need to introduce big changes to the lettings legislation all at the same time, which are all allegedly for the greater good (I won’t go there). I’ve tried staggering the updates out as much as I can, so you’re not overloaded with junk and boring shit to crunch through, but the deadlines for some of the requirements/changes are approaching hard and fast, so here we are…yet again, so soon.

As a quick recap, here are the most recent legislation changes I have already discussed, which all Landlords in England & Wales should be aware of:

And now, the new proposed rules for Section 21 notices for landlords in England.

I definitely advise ALL landlords to pay attention, although I appreciate it’s very limited appeal in nature. I’m not exactly flogging discount iPads here. But what can I do? I can only work with what’s shoved on my plate!

What is a Section 21 notice?

Before exploring deeper into this garbage, it’s probably a good idea if I cover the basics, just so we all start off on a level playing field…

A Section 21 notice is a document that is served by the landlord to their tenant in order to legally give advance notice of a tenancy termination. It is NOT an eviction notice, it is simply a notice saying, “Hey, as soon as the tenancy comes to an end (e.g. the fixed end date has expired), I want you to vacate”

So in terms of landlords repossessing their properties, it’s a pretty big deal.

While a Section 21 notice is crucial to ending a tenancy legally, it is also one of the most effective methods of removing rogue tenants efficiently. You can read more about Section 21 notices and how they currently work over on the main S21 blog post– which is still valid for landlords/tenants in England & Wales, and will remain valid for all tenancies that started before October 2015. However, for tenancies in England that start on or after October 2015, changes are coming…

The importance of complying with the changes

I can’t emphasise enough how important is to ensure you comply with the requirements so you’re in a position where you can serve a valid section 21 notice. Consider a valid S21 more important than family.

If you can’t serve a valid one it is going to be near impossible to repossess your property if you’re tenant is reluctant to leave and is prepared to go to court over the matter. You, as the landlord, will most likely be screwed.

Normally, if landlords want to repossess their property and do not have the grounds to evict, a section 21 is the only reliable and effective solution. Without that option, you could be left in a position where you cannot legally end the tenancy, so you may just have to wait until the tenant decides to surrender the tenancy, or gives you grounds for eviction. Neither could happen any time soon. The only other inadvisable and highly illegal option is to go Terminator on your tenants: smash through the front door and drag them out by their teeth. It’s been done before.

So what’s going to change?

A lot.

So much so that the new rules (The Assured Shorthold Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015) was beyond my feeble mind to comprehend, at least with confidence. I looked over the incoming changes and the dialogue frazzled my mind. Trying to breakdown the 1920’s old English scripture, which the Government call the legislation, would have lead to my brains being splattered all over the walls (perhaps an early Christmas present for some).

On the basis that I value my life, I reached out to someone whom I genuinely believe to be one of the most competent and well informed creatures in the lettings industry. If anyone could explain the new rules in a way that anyone normal and partially stupid can understand, it’s the saucy little minx I flushed out from a pool of stuttering dead-beats.

My already glowing review should be enough make you feel like you’re in safe hands, but I will also mention that she’s a recognised published author in the field. I personally haven’t read any of her boring landlord books (they were each more than 20 pages long, spare me), but I have read many of her articles on various other landlord/letting websites, and I quickly noticed how well she manages to explains circumstances, even the dry and convoluted legal issues. As many of you will know, that’s a rare and a beautiful pleasure in this hellhole industry- to actually have the legislation explained clearly.

I’ve already tried reading other industry experts explain the changes and it left me in a state of confusion, along with a banging headache. I even saw some hopeful fool attempting to simplify the changes with an info graphic– that was a pile of shit if ever I’ve seen one. Trying to break down this particular legislation into a graphical interface was always destined for failure. I didn’t understand what the hell it was trying to tell me, what a total mind-fuck.

Anyways, I reached out for her help with a few pleading words, assisted with a few pictures from my personal collection… let’s just say… she compared me to an elephant (I won’t repeat her exact words), and quickly became putty in my hands. She said she’d do it. She also said she’d explain the changes to the section 21 regulations for my blog! Amazing!

She has requested for anonymity, because naturally her association with my blog will probably burn her fruitful career to the ground, but on the flip-side, it means she’s able to express herself more freely than usual, without persecution. The following is all her (minus a few impulsive additions by myself)…

Section 21, NO longer the Landlords best friend!

On 7th September the Government published their new regulations for Section 21 Notices, which introduced “new” obligations on landlords who want to serve a valid S21 notice, which will come into play on the 1st October 2015.

Here’s a quick overview of the implications of the new rules…

  • Changes start for new tenancies which begin on or after 1st October 2015 but do not apply to Statutory Periodic Tenancies offered to existing tenants.
  • This only applies to properties which are rented in England, not in Wales or Scotland.
  • Tenancies in Wales are still subject to the current Section 21 rules, as are tenancies in England that started before October 2015.
  • Tenants must be given certain information WHEN THE TENANCY BEGINS.
  • Landlords must meet specific requirements for these tenancies or they will never be able to use a Section 21 Notice to repossess their property.

Now, let me explain what it all means so it makes more sense. Yes, you can read this on several web sites, but this is written by a real landlord who knows exactly what it means to us, so I’m able to translate the implications in real practical terms, as opposed to simply reciting the legal jargon without context.

The good news

But don’t get too excited, it’s pretty much the only good news.

Section 21 Notices must be served on a new prescribed form – FORM NO. 6A Notice Seeking Possession of a property let on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy. This new form will replace the current Section 21 notices 21(4)a and 21(1)b – you will NOT be able to serve those notices to new tenancies in England that start after or on October 2015.

The new form is not available yet but you won’t need it for 4 months, as you will see why!

Why is this good news?
It will stop us from screwing up the dates of possession and getting to court to have the case thrown out because it is not a valid notice. Many repossession cases have been thrown out of court and delayed for several months because the dates on the notices were incorrect. They were mostly trivial errors, but it caused major problems.

The Form 6A makes it clear when Possession can be requested and there is no longer a need to take account of the “last day of a tenancy period” so long as we follow the information on the 6A which includes time allowed for delivery by post (2/3 days).

What does the landlord have to do to serve a valid Section 21 Notice from 1st October?

Remember, this only applies to tenancies that begin on or after 1st October 2015. Tenancies which started before can rely on the current/old method and rules.

At the start of the tenancy the tenant must be given:

On the face of it this all seems straightforward, but let’s look at each one in relation to the legislation, because you’ll soon begin to realise, just as I did, that the pretty face is a strategic ploy to distract from the pure evil lurking under the dress.

An Energy Performance Certificate
Does this mean that the landlord can now ignore the legislation which says that we must show it at viewing?

in the case of a person who makes a request to view the building, the time at which the person views the building.

The whole point of showing a tenant the EPC is so that they can decide if they can afford the fuel bills, what would be the point in giving them the EPC after they have signed up? Unless you want to risk your Section 21 and be a test case, show it before you sign the tenant up and get proof that you did.

Gas Safety Certificate
The Gas Safety Regulation gives us 28 days in which to give the tenant a copy of the Gas Safety Certificate but this has been waived for this legislation, just so long as there was a Gas Safety Certificate to cover the tenancy and the tenant has been given a copy before we serve the S21 . We could still face sanctions for none compliance under the original legislation but it won’t invalidate our Section 21. Phew!

A copy of the Government’s How to Rent Guide
You can download this here.

The first 6 pages of this 8 page document give tenants advice and information about what to do before they agree to rent a property – what the hell is the point in forcing landlords to give to a person who has already signed a tenancy agreement? Baffling. That’s destined to gather dust and/or become very uncomfortable toilet paper, no doubt.

I must also note that the book is subject to get updated over time, so it’s important to ensure you download the latest version when your tenancy begins. Providing an out-of-date guide could be a loophole waiting to be abused by tenants looking for a reason to laugh in the face of a Section 21 notice.

For more information on the guide and the requirements to serve it, go to the main ‘How to Rent’ Guide for tenants post.

Deregulation Act 2014

Ok, so some of you may or may not know, but the above is all in addition to the changes that were made in the Deregulation Act 2014 which also apply from 1st October, which means the following:

  • Requirement 4: Tenants Deposits must be protected and the Prescribed Information for Tenants and Deposit Protection Certificate must be given to the tenant and anyone who has provided all or part of the deposit within 30 days of the money being paid.
  • Requirement 5: The Property must be licensed where the law requires – either a mandatory HMO or in an area where there is Selective or Additional licensing in place. Selective licensing is spreading like a nasty rash don’t get caught with your ass exposed.
  • Requirement 6: Preventing retaliatory eviction (Section 33 Deregulation Act 2014)

Preventing retaliatory eviction

Let’s take a closer look at the last point…

This is arguably the biggest change, and it’s been slung into the regulations to prevent the so-called “revenge eviction” phenomenon, which is when a landlord allegedly evicts tenants when they complain about repairs that need attending.

This is what the new legislation says:

A section 21 notice given in relation to an assured shorthold tenancy of a dwelling-house in England is invalid where—

  • (a) before the section 21 notice was given, the tenant made a complaint in writing to the landlord regarding the condition of the dwelling-house at the time of the complaint,
  • (b) the landlord—
    • (i) did not provide a response to the complaint within 14 days beginning with the day on which the complaint was given,
    • (ii) provided a response to the complaint that was not an adequate response, or
    • (iii) gave a section 21 notice in relation to the dwelling-house following the complaint,
  • (c) the tenant then made a complaint to the relevant local housing authority about the same, or substantially the same, subject matter as the complaint to the landlord
  • (d) the relevant local housing authority served a relevant notice in relation to the dwelling-house in response to the complaint, and
  • (e) if the section 21 notice was not given before the tenant’s complaint to the local housing authority, it was given before the service of the relevant notice.

Essentially, landlords will not be able to serve a valid Section if…

  • the tenant has made a written complaint to the landlord about the condition of the property before the notice was served; and
  • the landlord has not provided an adequate written response (e.g. clarify what actions you are going to take to resolve the problem and to what timescale) within 14 days; and
  • the tenant has then complained to the relevant local authority about the problem, who then serve an “Improvement/Remedial notice.”

The alarm bells are ringing because the tenant could just complain about bullshit and make it increasingly difficult if the local authorities side with the tenant (which they often do). Although, good landlords needn’t worry, I suspect. The notice only becomes invalid if a Improvement/Remedial notice is served by the Council. I wonder how many tenants will know that?

Which brings me to my next point, a lot of this will be based on how much a tenant knows about their rights and the new legislation, which I suspect will be very little. In theory, a tenant could make a written complaint to the landlord (how many tenants actually send written complaints?) and then the landlord could still serve a section 21 notice. If the tenant does not take the next step, which is to complain to the Council and get an Improvement/remedial issued to the landlord, the Section 21 will still be valid.

Bear in mind, this will also be very much reliant on how quickly the Council can react to complaints, because if they issue an Improvement/Remedial notice AFTER the Section 21 expires, it will be useless because the landlord will already have legal possession of the property. The window of opportunity will usually be around 2-3 months, because that’s how much notice landlords give their tenants.

When can I serve a Section 21?

The many letting agents and landlords who habitually serve a Section 21 at the start of the tenancy, or at signup are going to hate this one.

It’s over.

Truly.

You will NOT be able to serve a Section 21 notice within the first 4 months of a fixed term from the original tenancy (so this excludes periodic tenancies and tenancy renewals). That’s the first major change when it comes to serving the notice. So that poses the question… how will you serve a Section 21 notice to expire on the last day of a 6 month tenancy if I cannot serve in the first 4 months? You can’t. Notice periods will now expire a few days after the end of a 6 month fixed term. If a tenant moves out on the final day of the notice period, the legislation makes it clear that landlords should repay the remainder of the rent for the month to the tenant.

How much notice do we have to give our tenants?

There still a minimum of two months’ notice, and that’s how much notice most of us will need to give. But unlike the old Section 21 notices, there is no need for landlords to end their notice on a period of a tenancy (e.g. if the tenancy started on the 14th July 2015, we won’t need to end it on the 14th of July 2015). They just need to comply with the correct time period.

Where a periodic tenancy period runs quarterly or biannually, landlords will still need to give an appropriate matching period of notice (e.g. 3 months’ notice for quarterly tenancy periods, 6 months’ notice for biannual and above).

As always, a Section 21 notice period cannot end during a fixed term unless permitted to enforce a break clause.

So, there you have it. A lot more “to do”, but generally, there’s a few good and bad changes.

Back over to the landlord now…

Using a letting agent?

I can only advise you to ensure that whoever or whatever is managing your property is following all the legal and sensible procedures!

Incidentally, it was only the other day that someone left a comment on my blog, saying that with all these regulations coming into play it might be worth handing the management responsibilities over to an agent.

I’ll just copy/paste my response:

While I do understand your point, the problem is that not all letting agents actually follow or are completely aware of the legislations. But more importantly, it is ultimately the landlords responsibility to ensure the legislations are met, not the hired helps. So even the landlords that choose to use managed services should be aware of the laws, that way they can be sure they are being met… because if they’re not, it will be the landlord wearing the cuffs.

I have no problems with landlords using managed services, it suits some landlords better. However, I don’t think that should ever be a reason for landlords not-knowing their legal responsibilities and best practices.

Conclusion

As it stands, that pretty much covers the most significant incoming changes we should all be looking forward to, and I hope it’s a little clearer for you. However, since the information in this post is based on draft guidelines, some elements may change once the final guidance documents are released on 1st October 2015, in which case I’ll make the appropriate updates. But I doubt much will change.

My further thoughts…

  • Sign ’em up – If you’re on the verge of getting new tenants, it might be worth signing them up before the 1st of October 2015 (even if that means they don’t move in until after), so you can rely on the current section 21 legislation, which evidently comes attached with much better protection and less confusion for landlords.
  • Tenant referencing – It goes without saying that rigorous tenant referencing has always been imperative, but if it’s possible, it just became even more important to get it right. There’s now plenty of new scope for tenants, on top of what they are already treated to, to take advantage of the new rules (i.e. retaliatory eviction) and punish landlords. I’ve always been a loyal advocate of waiting for the “right tenant” even if that entails longer void periods.
  • Allow the tenancy to roll – instead of renewing contracts with existing tenants when the time is right, you might be better served by allowing the tenancy to roll onto a periodic tenancy, that way you’ll still be subject to the old rules.

If you have any questions, or if you need anything explained further, leave a comment below. My lady-friend will go by the alias SheLandlord and will happily address all your concerns! Also, as usual, general comments/thoughts about this issue or any other welcome (including any nasty burning sensations you or “a friend” is experiencing)…

Like this post? Then maybe you should sign up to my FREE newsletter so you receive more like it!

70 Comments- Join The Conversation...

Showing 20 - 70 comments (out of 70)
Guest Avatar
Gary Jackson 24th September, 2015 @ 13:13

FanF£$kin'Tastic,

I specialise in HMOs and quite often i live in the house whilst doing it up and let the rooms under lodger agreements as i can't use AST's whilst living there. Then when the house is full and i'm sick of living with the twats i then either buy another doer upper or rent a flat for myself to have 6 months rest and start again. Some tenants are happy to sign an AST when i move out but some will not so i leave them in the house paying monthly. What part of the governments legislative wisdom covers this shit in real life situations. Tenants can probably talk to Bill and Ben down the pub and stumble on adverse possession ownership of my house if they stay there for 12 years because i can't remove them.

LuvvlyF£$kin'Jubbly

20
Guest Avatar
Barrie 24th September, 2015 @ 20:10

Excellent write up. I am on the verge of selling up the government are ruining what was a good business. They must have a reason? Perhaps this is how they will kill the property market finally

21
Guest Avatar
David 24th September, 2015 @ 21:59

@Landlord

I think you have got quite a lot wrong on this new legislation, just to be clear this was brought in because landlords were whinging.

You know the scenario, the Landlord delivered an S21 notice and got it wrong, s/he forgot to issue the prescribed information, they screwed up the date of service thus nullifying the S21.

So the GOOD news is that you no longer have to serve on a rent anniversary, you just have to give at least 2 months notice.

Yes you can't serve S21 on day 1 of the tenancy nor for four months because that was a devious tactic by lazy landlords who wanted to just hold the notice over a tenant reducing their security and ability to enjoy their tenancy.

For the same reason the S21 expires if not used, again to avoid the misuse. The simple fact is that a statutory notice is designed for a Landlord who decide they want to end a tenancy after the initial period of six months (the statutory minimum). By putting issuing it on day one they were misusing it, taking away the real notice a tenant had.

It also had to be changed to stop it screwing up the legislation to stop revenge evictions.

You also bleat about the rental period being the notice period, this was always the case, until a case in 2013 called Spencer vs Taylor.

However in my recollection this is all defined by the "rent period" so if your tenancy agreement states that the rent period is one month and you agree with a tenant that you will take six monthly payments upfront the rent period remains the same.

No need to bitch about this, just make it work for you, for starters nobody wants a 6 month tenancy, it is tedious and adds more costs.

So here is how you do it, you issue a one year and one week tenancy agreement, with a break clause at 6 months and one week, then if you need to get rid of the tenant for issues not covered under Section 8 you issue the S21 at the 4 month limit and have it expire at 6 months and one week.

Otherwise you let the tenancy run the year, if you want to stop it at a year give your notice around 90 days before. That way if you get any crap from the tenant you have a month to reserve.

Now you did not make it clear that the government how to rent guide replaces the PI and that there is an obligation to issue the latest version of this at the time the tenancy is made OR RENEWED.

The easiest way to avoid hassle is to move to statutory periodic after the initial year, you will not have to worry about issuing new updated how to rent booklets and you will just issue an S21 when you genuinely want to end the tenancy not because you want some insurance.

Now you said that a tenant can sod off as soon as you issue an S21, well they could but it is bollocks to suggest that this in any way removes their contractual obligation as stated in the lease, for example if the lease has a minimum period of 6 months the tenant has to pay that as always or be responsible for the landlords reasonable costs in replacing the tenant.

The S21 notice is merely letting the tenant know that you intend to end the tenancy.

As for the revenge evictions, Councils will not really consider simple mould caused by lack of airing as a problem, in fact if a tenant calls you regarding mould, you yourself call the Council and ask them to send their mould leaflet to the tenant. Now if (as if OFTEN the case in ground floor flats) the mould is coming from the damp proof course not being properly sealed then you can expect that to need to be fixed. You would also be advised to install air bricks, good fans and ventilation piping behind them in the bathroom, plus to paint the usual areas of mould with special paint after nuking the area with thin bleach (29p at tesco).

I would strongly suggest that you do NOT use an agent, you are still liable for their cock ups.

Also amend your tenancy agreements to say that the tenant must provide a suitable email address for service of notices regarding the tenancy and hereby consents for this email to be used by the landlord for such service. A tricky tenant could undo this by telling you they no longer use that email and no longer consent to receive such notices but it will suffice for most. This enables you to serve shit by email instead of by post (see I told you this law had been brought in to help Landlords.

Now you no longer have to worry about date as long as there is 2 months clear notice, you no longer need to worry about PI, just issue the official How to Rent booklet and you can issue an S21 by email.

Why are you bitching, you never had it so good!!

More info on this subject here:

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/2015/09/1-october-2015-section-21-day/

22
Guest Avatar
David 24th September, 2015 @ 22:05

Oh and the unpaid rent legislation is there just to cover the tenant who may have overpaid rent, this is really about the few days around the rent due date, it was created so you do not have to make the S21 match the rent due date.

For example rent is due on the 1st of the month and has gone statutory periodic, before you had to issue your S21 on the 1st, now you can issue on the 15th giving the tenant 2 months notice, the tenant still has to pay their rent on the first but you may owe them from the 15th to the 31st, get it?

23
The Landlord Avatar
The Landlord 24th September, 2015 @ 22:58

@David
Thanks for your comments.

A lot of what you said makes sense, but with respect, it seems like you actually, quite ironically, got a lot wrong about the blog post.

Firstly, most of the details provided was written by someone else very qualified (clearly stated, which makes me question how much you actually read). I'm she sure'll respond in good time and fill in the holes I leave behind with my response to you.

I don't know the best way to approach your comments without transforming this into a drawn out affair that will bore the crap out of me. But hopefully this won't spiral out of control and we can just agree to disagree.

1) The post does explain that the good news is that the dates won't get messed up. That was never misunderstood. I'm not sure if you got that, but you seemed to write a lot about it, which gave the impression that you thought it wasn't stated.

2)

for starters nobody wants a 6 month tenancy, it is tedious and adds more costs.

The fact you said that (along with a few other bits) makes me believe that you're approaching this from a purely legal point of few and not practical... at all. That's the problem with the legislation, it's not practical (which is the general view of the post). And as said in the post, that's the problem- most people aren't approaching the changes from a practical point of view.

I have no idea why 6 months tenancies would cost more than 12 month tenancies (it's never cost me more). Secondly, from my experience, 6 month tenancies are very common. They're safer for both landlord and tenant, because neither know how the other will be, so a "lock in" (more than 6 months) can be brutal if the situation turns sour. All my tenancies with new tenants are 6 months, and it's what I always advise other landlords/tenants to favour. I have no idea why you think no one wants them.

But you also say to have a break clause 6 months in, which makes no sense if you're so against 6 month contracts.

You say nobody wants a 6 month tenancy, yet you suggest a one year and one week tenancy (I'm not even sure you can do that, which makes your entire workaround/suggestion moot...! Contracts are based on set payment periods e.g. PCM or Weekly etc. It would also cause confusion/discrepancies if the tenancy rolls onto a periodic tenancy if the last week's rent was paid separate from the PCM rent). In any case, how practical is 1 year and 1 week tenancy terms? How many landlords will actually do that (assuming you can, which I still highly doubt)?

3) The mould scenario was just an example of how the system could be exploited by a tenant complaining about a bogus disrepair issue. Again, you missed the principle and focused on a literal case. Throw in any trivial issue that can be complained about to slow down the process. The point still stands. And to be honest, I think your view of how "easily" the mould complaint would be neglected is debatable, but anyways, that wasn't the point.

4) The whole email/tenancy agreement point... no idea how that relates to me misunderstanding.

5) Re: rent guide, "OR RENEWED." ... that's been ADDED. Wasn't really a misunderstanding, but thank you for pointing it out. But you also don't mention that it only needs to be reissued if a new version has been released when the new tenancy begins. But these finer details weren't necessarily meant to be covered here (otherwise the entire legislation would need to be transcribed), it is more so an overall practical view of what the changes could translate to in real life. Perhaps if I covered the 'rent guide' on its own, I would have gone into the finer details.

Now you did not make it clear that the government how to rent guide replaces the PI

Surely the "rent guide" IS the P.I. How does it replace itself?

Are you saying the rent guide replaces the tenancy deposit P.I? I think that's what you're saying, but forgive me if I'm mistake. If it is, that would make no sense.

I think you're defining the "P.I" as one entity, which I don't think is accurate. The prescribed information regarding the S21 is the rent guide, while the P.I for the deposit is something different. Part of the P.I for a tenancy deposit is the deposit certificate and the details of the specific deposit scheme. Why would the rent guide replace those?

Either way, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1646/regulation/3/made - there's no mention of the guide replacing anything.

Overall, I just think you repeated a lot of was said, and elaborated in parts, and actually, made it more clear how impractical the changes are. You also spent a lot of time explaining the ethical and right time to use S21 notices, none of which was the issue (as far as I'm aware).

You made some useful comments, but I think you've got some things wrong, and much of what you said didn't make the comments in the post wrong.

Once again, many thanks :)

24
Guest Avatar
Eric Dickinson 24th September, 2015 @ 23:35

"Now you did not make it clear that the government how to rent guide replaces the PI " There's definitely a reason why that wasn't made clear and that's because it's not true. I have to agree though, much of what David said was just about the general premise of what a s21 is and when it should be used.

25
Guest Avatar
SheLandlord 26th September, 2015 @ 13:37

@AngryLandlord. Yes that is correct

@Christian. I always ask for the contact details of the landlord before their current on and I call and ask just 2 simple questions

1. Was this person your tenant during this period?
2. Would you offer him/her a tenancy again?

I don't care why if they answer NO to the second question I just won't take them either.

@Trish the new legislation only applies to new tenants who come to you from 1st October - not existing tenants who are offered a new contract

@Ron the Worried. Please see above - welcome to the landlord world I hope that you enjoy it as much as I do

@Mike Warrington that may well be a solution and you can give a tenant a fixed term of whatever length suits you both.

@Eric Good question. It only applies to this legislation so far but the Government want all prospective tenants to use it and they have no budget for getting it to them so I expect we will see other legislation tweaked to include it in future. I am giving it to all my new tenants just in case

@Gary There is no legal requirement to have a written contract with any tenant or lodger. The law will decide on the status of the person based on the facts of their occupation. The day that you move out your lodger become tenants by statute. No danger of Adverse Possession. A written AST would be useful when using Section 21 otherwise you will struggle to prove how long they have lived their. The tenancy will be a verbal Periodic tenancy. Personally I would not leave anyone living their who would not sign an AST - just too much potential for hassle.

Let's not fall out over this. Landlords do not evict tenants without a good reason, each one of us has a different criteria of what that reason might be. We are not "bitching" we are all trying to understand these changes so that we can comply with the law. Bad landlords will continue to "send the boys around". Well done all of us for being good landlords who really do want to understand and do as the law requires

She

26
Guest Avatar
SheLandlord 26th September, 2015 @ 14:00

By the way all this will be irrelevant if the tax changes announced in the budget are not stopped. PLEASE sign the petition to ask Government to look at this again here https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104880 We must get 100,000 signatures and there are only 30,575 at the moment. Please ask every landlord you know to sign it.

She

27
Guest Avatar
SheLandlord 29th September, 2015 @ 15:47

At the 11th hour Government have got the new Section 21 Notice Form 6A through parliament in time for 1st October. You will find it here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1725/pdfs/uksi_20151725_en.pdf

She

28
The Landlord Avatar
The Landlord 1st October, 2015 @ 07:57

For anyone monitoring or subscribed to this post, just a quick reminder that the new Section 21 legislation for landlords in England kicks off today!

God bless you all :)

29
Guest Avatar
Dorrel Fyffe 5th November, 2015 @ 12:45

Thank you so much for enlightneing me I am in a very sticking situation I have just lost 850 pounds trying to evict tentants from a house that have been let and manage by Agent. I have only receive 3 months rent for the year. The Agent let me know the tenants arn't paying then the tenants say they are paying. We went to court and had to postpone because the agent did not protect the deposit he told us the tenants were not able to pay full deposit so he had to reduce.
The lawyer we had was very good and advise us to postpone the case.
So now I need to get the rent from the estate agent because has receive money but not paying us. Each time I confront him he will put something into my account.
There were work to be done also on the property which tenants states they told estate agent and all he ever does is smile,but he never brought antthing to our notices.
Mind you almost 7 months rent outstanding.
Now I will have to do the repairs with all the rent outstanding. All I wanted was the property back so I could sell it. Letting is not for me.
I would like to know if Peerborough is doing it.

Thank you so much I am very enlightened. Proprty is not for me. There are rogue estate agents out there and trust me I am feeling it hard.

30
Guest Avatar
She Landlord 5th November, 2015 @ 18:17

I'm sorry to read your post, you have been let down badly by your agent. The first thing to do is sort out the issues with the agent until you have done that you won't know how much rent,if any, the tenant had not paid. If the tenant is actually in arrears you could use Section 8 rather than 21 to get your property back

Every agent must,by law, be a member of a property redress scheme. This would give you free redress against him. If he is a member, put in a complaint. If he is not tell the local Trading Standards Office and your Council who can take action against him including charging a penalty of £5000

You might try telling your agent that you intend to take this action and see if he bucks his ideas up

Good luck

She

31
Guest Avatar
EMMA THE LANDLORD 9th November, 2015 @ 11:03

Sorry if this has already been discussed. Does the AST contract still apply or were these also updated from 1st Oct with any of the new change. Many thanks

32
Guest Avatar
She Landlord 9th November, 2015 @ 21:26

No Emma the legislation does not change the AST

She

33
Guest Avatar
David 20th November, 2015 @ 23:46

@Dorrel Fyffe

So you need to correct the agents mistake and protect the deposit then issue the prescribed information to the tenant which is the official way you tell them where the deposit is protected. There is a form on the DPS site for doing this.

The repairs will depend on how grave they are, e.g. a hole in the roof is more serious than a faulty washing machine, did they involve the local council?

Now you need to dismiss the agent and have your lawyer send them a letter telling them that you are holding them responsible for their failure to protect the deposit and any consequential loss arising from that.

Also say that as they are in breach of contract by not managing the tenants or property or collecting rent you will again be holding them responsible and taking them to court and of course you will be seeking recovery of your legal costs including court fees etc.

34
Guest Avatar
Jenny 14th March, 2016 @ 11:41

Why anyone would bother with residential is beyond me. And it will get worse, Mark my words.

35
Guest Avatar
Nige 25th April, 2016 @ 22:26

Did you know that if a tenant dies you may have to issue a section 21 notice. Tenancies do not end if the tenant dies !!!

36
Guest Avatar
David 26th April, 2016 @ 07:46

Errr Yeh

I mean tenant might have a wife, a child, a partner, a brother or sister who lives with them but let's not give them any rights!!

Seriously, whoever is doing probate would want to get out of any obligations ASAP, any survivors would want to take out new tenancy.

Ironically I do not think you could hold the Estate responsible for much, death is usually a pretty good reason to not comply with any contract and boy you would be in trouble if you went after a widow et al.

#landlordinsurance

37
Guest Avatar
carol & liam 5th September, 2016 @ 15:22

We were unaware of the new legislation introduced in October 2015 and have let two flats after that date without an EPC or a How to rent guide. Can we now right this situation or does this mean that it will be impossible to issue a S21 if the necessity should arise? As the building has no gas is a gas certain required? Thanks, Carol & Liam

38
Guest Avatar
Bass player 17th September, 2016 @ 16:25

I issued a s21 on a 2yr ast which expires 1st October. I stated a leave date of November 1st. Will the notice still be valid since i served it within the ast period but it exit date falls into a periodic tenancy?

39
Guest Avatar
David 21st September, 2016 @ 10:20

@carol & liam

All you need to do is issue those as soon as possible and get a signature that you have done so.

If you tried to issue an S21 without them having been given it could be disputed but if you provide them albeit late you are fine.

More critical is the deposit protection being done within 30 days and the issuing of PI with 30 days.

40
Guest Avatar
David 21st September, 2016 @ 10:28

@Bass player

You can issue an S21 at any time after 4 months into a tenancy, as long as you protected the deposit and issued the PI, newer tenancies (Post Oct 1 2015) require a Gas Safety Certificate, How to Rent Booklet and EPC.

The status of the tenancy becoming statutory periodic is not an issue, all tenancies go this way when they expire and are not renewed, or rather Stat periodics are a kind of continual renewal until S21 issued. As long as the tenancy is "substantially the same" then the 21 is just a notice to quit, no fault eviction.

The explicit dates of issue are not as important as they used to be except that the S21 must give at least 60 days notice, so for Nov 1st exit one would hope you issued it on or before 31st August.

41
Guest Avatar
Ziba 5th November, 2016 @ 17:11

Oh boo hoo to all you poor landlords. If anything the section21 should be scrapped full stop! Either your renting or your not. Me and my 3 children, one is disabled got served a section 21 after being promised that we could rent long term. £3000 spent on the property later, we got served a section 21 for no reason! I said but you said long term, they said it was only a six month contract.
These landlords were doctors! I asked if their was a problem. They said no they need the house back for personal reasons. Our mum is ill and she needs the property. I spent all my savings on the house! I fixed everything myself so the landlords would have no reason to evict me and my kids! In the end we had no choice but to leave only for the shitty degrading landlords to re rent the property out to someone else! Me and my kids are still homeless 8 months later! All I've read is moan moan moan from the landlords or landlords asking how this n how that! Landlords are nothing but money sucking greedy shits that don't give a shit about tenants or the effect it would have on us families when section 21s are served. Don't get me wrong, I get it if rent ain't been paid or you really are dealing with problem tenants but to throw families out for more money and lien about it is an absolute disgrace! Especially after the tenant did the house up for landlords to be able to get a higher rent in the first place! Eviction notices should be fair! Plain and simple and even after these minor changes it's still not fair. People are being made homeless because landlords don't want to do what's right, what's their responsibility by fixing their own property or quiet simply because us tenants don't KISS THEIR ASS their way!

42
Guest Avatar
Barrie 6th November, 2016 @ 11:53

Sorry to hear that Ziba I have never put a tenant out and sold myself but you must remember it is not personal. I became a LL not because I was a mean and only money obsessed, but because this housed many people for fair rents in top notch accommodation, which I continue to do. Most of us LL provide a far better service than your local social housing provider. We don't want our arse kissed by tenants we just want a fair rent paid on time and for our property not to be destroyed, which sadly has become a game of chance. Imagine loaning your car to someone who then trashed it and simply walked away with no responsibility or guilt, if you cannot grasp the position of a landlord. But thanks for your rant, it helps me to see things from the other side.

43
Guest Avatar
Benji 6th November, 2016 @ 13:10

@Ziba,
So the landlords went through all the hassle, time, trouble and cost of changing a perfectly good tenant for a new tenant for no reason?
Doesn't make sense.

44
The Landlord Avatar
The Landlord 6th November, 2016 @ 13:19

@Ziba

All I've read is moan moan moan

You got that right.

45
Guest Avatar
David 7th November, 2016 @ 13:53

@Ziba

I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you have had.

When I have rented I have been quite happy to fix small things myself, although I limit plumbing to clearing ubend on kitchen sink.

You must be nuts to spend £3k on someone else's property.

In future if the Landlord is not carrying out repairs you should speak to your local Council. For tenancy agreements since October 2015 Landlords can be prevented from issuing S21 in so called Revenge Evictions, but you must have reported them for failure to carry out such repairs.

Sadly you are right that you cannot trust a Landlord who says their property is going to be a long let, the only way to secure this is to insist the tenancy agreement is for 5 years with break clauses that create penalties to both parties. The simple fact is people's plans change, a couple can get divorced and need to sell the property they are renting.

Now they are supposed to use Section 8 no Section 21 but because S21 is too easy they are using it to avoid legal fees. If they have given you evidence of their reason you might TRY to fight the S21 on the basis that they should have used S8, but S21 is a no fault (any reason) method.

You might want to approach the Landlord for recovery of your £3k, you are entitled to take the materials you used as long as they were not energy saving materials.

You do not say what the £3k was spent on and why?

Now if the Landlords did not protect your deposit with an APPROVED scheme within 30 days and if they did not issue you with the Prescribed Information within 30 days you can seek sanctions under S214 of the Housing Act. IF and it is a big IF, they failed to protect your deposit and issue you with PI then they could be charged 3x the rent plus you get the deposit back.

If the PI does not give you the correct details of the deposit (or was not served) then that can invalidate a section 21.

Another potential issue is that the Section 21 was not correctly following rules, it should give 2 clear months notice from the moment it was served.

I suggest you speak to Shelter and/or post back to this thread to get further advice. If the Section 21 is found to be invalid and you are absolutely sure it is not valid then you can reject it at any time up to the end of the two months notice. You need legal advice and depending on your income you may be entitled to a free consult under legal aid. It is usually crap with legal firms spending an average of 9 minutes per case referred. The exception to this is Shelter legal but you cannot choose them, it is a lottery. Do not confuse this with the Shelter helpline which you are free to call.

In some ways this Landlord may have done you a favour, by evicting a family they put an obligatio on the local authority to house you. If you can't afford private sector rents you may get access to Social Housing which means a lower rent in the future and a secure tenancy.

I know that being evicted creates a great deal of uncertainty for you and your family and I wish you well.

46
Guest Avatar
Jenny 7th November, 2016 @ 15:02

I don't understand why there are residential private landlords left - I'm slowly selling mine because of the changes in law, residential is too risky now.

47
Guest Avatar
David 8th November, 2016 @ 19:42

@Jenny

That is what the Con Gov wants, they want Landlords to form companies and transfer the ownership to them so they get the stamp duty,

Also so those companies can be sold and merged to move rendential properties to faceless organisations that they can control more easily.

The rules on S21 have been made easier for landlords in dereg act the one to watch out for is yet to come.

48
Guest Avatar
Milos1980 31st December, 2016 @ 02:35

A very good post thank you sir

A lot of people are complaining and I feel for everyone The landlord is being squeezed pretty hard. You would think this will impact the market craze yet it doesn't. If you've found this page looking laws up and if anyone is a new landlord thinking of investing with little to no experience letting and large liability to deposit ratio along with now these strickter rules with the section 21 please think very carefully don't just become a landlord if you can barely afford it the government are making it a pretty hard game indeed

49
Guest Avatar
Milos1980 31st December, 2016 @ 06:55

@ziba
I also am very sorry for your bad experience it sounds very auwful indeed and sadly this too does happen.youre angry now which is understandable but you must try not to generalise not all landlords will be like that. Telling you what you need to hear then evicting you when it suites them. I would also be angry if I had to uproot my life at whim at the best of times let alone in your situation
Moving forward if you go down the private sector again I know it isn't maybe legal and have no idea how it could stand up in court but maybe first ask your new LL once he accepted you as a tenant what his financial interests are within 5 years ? letting or selling ? Maybe write out an agreement that's signed maybe go as far to pay a Solisitor to write it
As sadly people do not always mean what they say on the spot but written down signed on paper clearly stating your tenancy is secure for x years and section 21s are void unless you owe money. By no means don't take this as legal advice it's just something.I can say if I had plans to sell at whim regardless of the standings of the agreement could or can have in court I wouldn't sign it so maybe it's just something that will help you filter on the other hand my genuine interests are to let I would sign it provided it was a simple easy to read document protecting you should you do nothing wrong.

Another thing you could do that's come to my mind ,as landlords we need to know that our tenants are financially stable £xxxxx pa house hold income 2 months deposit months rent enough money to show tenants can cover rent if they loose job all of a sudden for say 4 months and applicants always show their personal earnings . But there is nothing stopping you from explaining your bad experience to your landlord and asking if he wouldn't mind proving to you that he in turn is financially stable why not? It's a 2 way thing end of the day he may find it very weird since when can tenants ask for this! but just say you want to make sure your rent is covering the mortgage and that he has a steady income perhaps a simple bank statement showing your landlord isn't on the bread line
Which is a very good indication along with confirmed a long term tenancy
He won't need to sell anytime soon due to financial difficulties and maybe shows he's making good profit, and if a property is making good profit and you know it you basically know he is telling the truth regardless if he signs that agreement no landlord would want to sell a property that's making good profit

these are just maybe some Extra steps that might just ensure such a calamity that you had won't happen again and once again I'm sorry that happens to you it's embarrassing for all the good landlords out there it gets me angry .. I'm sure Most Lls wouldn't dream of doing anything remotely like especially given your circumstances I
Hope things go on the up for you and your Family in the new year

50
Guest Avatar
David 31st December, 2016 @ 12:03

@Milos1980

With respect, I think you are on another planet.

Just like there are different kinds of tenant, there are different kinds of Landlord.

A financially astute Landlord will simply not entertain questions from a tenant as to his/her financial situation and will move to the next applicant.

I had a client who came to me pretty late in his situation, he was a decent earner (£120k+) but fell off the ladder, wife bailed and left him homeless with huge debt he had incurred whilst trying to keep family together.

So he found a Landlord and said he wanted at least 5 years Landlord said they had 4 properties and were professional but only prepared to sign one year agreements.

Landlord signed 2nd year but then tried to pull out, they then had a legal battle for 18 months, cost client £9k in legal fees because eventually you lose no matter what. Landlord has similar costs.

What we found at the end was that Landlord wanted to sell several properties to get a bigger one, the client said that if the Landlord had asked them "Look I know I promised 5 years but my financial circumstances have changed, could I pay you a couple of K, pay your moving costs and terminate early?" They would have got a co-operative response.

What many Landlords do not realise is that while it is an investement for them it is a HOME for the tenant and so if they are going to evict it is going to create a LOSS for the tenant.

The tenant will then go through a bereavement process of Shock, Negotiation, Denial, Anger, Sorrow, Depression and finally Acceptance. They will also have huge moving costs.

So unless you handle them extremely carefully you are going to be on the receiving end of that anger at some point. That is why properties get trashed or Landlords get sued for failing to protect deposit etc.

I think the only way a tenant can be sure is with a 5 year agreement with a penalty for for early termination.

Section 21 is being abused, it is one sided for the Landlord to have a no fault break with just two months notice. Part of the problem is the Sec 8 can be abused so that if tenant makes a payment into court the S8 is affected.

Still, I would increase Section 21 to 6 months and tighten up the section 8. I would also like to see all agreements with min term of 3 years with break clauses that come with penalty.

More than anything we need to build build build, we are millions short in terms of homes and it is making rents too high which impacts the whole economy.

51
Guest Avatar
Phil 31st December, 2016 @ 13:28

@David
"I would also like to see all agreements with min term of 3 years with break clauses that come with penalty."

The majority of tenants prefer tenancies of less than 3 years (ARLA, RICS, EHS et al- Please don't be taken in by the housing charity industry fundraising 'surveys' with their loaded questions).

It is perfectly feasible for those wanting the terms you describe to negotiate (and pay for) such a tenancy within the existing framework.

Imposing longer tenancies comes with a cost. Why should the majority pay for the minority?

52
Guest Avatar
Milos1980 31st December, 2016 @ 14:35

@david
You're right it's unlikely the landlord would meet these requests but I'm just annoyed to hear her story and something does need to be done it was just an idea that comes to mind so tenants need to have a basic way of protecting them selfs in these situations so maybe that break clause penalty you mentioned would be a good start

53
Guest Avatar
David 31st December, 2016 @ 23:41

@Phil

It would be nice to think that but history has shown us that unless you regulate the market runs riot.

Why did the Deposit Protection legislation have to be created, because of rogue Landlords, why did the Prescribed Information law have to be created, because Landlords may have protected the deposit but they did not tell tenants where.

Now when I say penalty I mean for both sides, but I would also like to see much tougher rent increase limits. At the moment it is a wild west in most parts of the country with rents going up to ridiculous, over occupency, sub letting and yes trashing too.

It is now illegal to sub let a Council or HA property, it is fraud, so why not extend that to the private sector.

I do not see how a three year minimum term would cost any more than now, in fact it should be cheaper as no costs for cleaning and redecorating.

I know that there are a lot of dodgy tenants out there but equally many dodgy Landlords. The number of S21's issued is way too high, if the market were working properly landlords would want to keep their tenants rather than use S21 as a way to put rent up.

54
Guest Avatar
Phil 1st January, 2017 @ 11:34

@David,

1. Deposit protection is a great example of badly drafted knee jerk legislation. It has been a complete farce.

2.Rent increases are not a problem for the majority of tenancies. Existing tenants pay around 10% less than new tenancies. Limit rent increases to CPI or whatever and landlords would automatically include annual increases into AST's, once again the majority would pay for the minority. If you are suggesting rent controls then look into the disaster of last time we tried it.

3 Imposing 3 year tenancies would stop hundreds of thousands of landlords from letting out properties leading to a huge increase in rents from the long term professional landlords remaining. And as said, the majority of tenants do not even want 3 year tenancies.

4. MoJ possession figures have remained fairly constant. Increased use of s21 is merely a reflection of the failed s8 process. The amount of landlords evicting using s21 in order to put the rent up is tiny, after all there is a perfectly acceptable s13 procedure that can be used for increasing rents.

5. s21 can only be used outside the fixed agreed term. It is fair and equitable that landlords should be able to regain possession at the end of this should they wish. The minority of tenants wanting longer tenancies can and should negotiate (and pay) for them.

55
Guest Avatar
David 29th March, 2017 @ 08:08

@Phil

Sorry for delayed response the site has not been sending me updates as I click a wrong button.

As I said history has shown us that unless you regulate the market runs riot. We see that every day with organisations large and small.

You demonstrate this when you say " Increased use of s21 is merely a reflection of the failed s8 process." What that means is that although rent disputes are meant to be handled by S8 the Landlord is using S21 which is supposed to be "no fault" because it costs them less,

So perhaps the Gov needs to tighten up S21 by saying if you go S21 you lose any right to bring an arrears claim and rent may not be increased hight than the last tenancy if tenancy was less than 37 months.

Only necessary because Landlords are not using the law appropriately.

The law does have lots of "if then else" traps which would be nice to clear up but the law is mostly not like that. I would like to think that if we brought in a new law for capital punishment for certain crimes we could apply it to all those in prison for those crimes but sadly we can't.

I think Shelter would disagree with most of your points and the 3 year minimum tenancy would be more subject to market forces. For example for the new tax changes next month not all landlords will increase their rents because they may not want to lose good tenants. It will depend on how old the mortgage is.

What IS more likely to affect rents is inflation and now that it jumped to over 2% we have to see if they will increase the base rate. Usually a 0.25 increase kicks off a 1% to 2% increase on the street, depending on product.

56
Guest Avatar
Ziba 29th March, 2017 @ 09:07

Thank you everyone for your comments. Benji, if your puzzled then can you imagine how I feel? I've got a petition out for anyone who is willing to sign I would be grateful and I'm also in the papers if one would like to read. Ziba Khan the sun.
As much as I've re rented in the private sector again in the last 12 months this landlord tried to exactly the same as the previous landlord. I'm happy to let everyone know that I literally kicked his ass in the courts and won this recent s21. I'm over the moon. Finally landlords can no longer through you out over repairs. Only the problem does still lye for many many many tenants out their. With me once bitten twice shy. I learnt read and did my upmost best to understand the law in s21 and procedures where as many don't. You can still get evicted over disrepair unless it has been reported by writing and you have proof. For some tenants this action ends up being too late as they verbally ask a landlord for a repair and within 24hours a s21 is landed HAND DELIVERED!
I feel for all those lovely landlords and wished one had dawned on me. Just my luck really.
Please sign my petition, if you are honest landlord... you would sign.
Thanks everyone and I'm not giving up!
https://www.change.org/p/liz-kendall-mp-landlords-to-stop-evicting-innocent-women-and-children-for-no-reason?recruiter=440597202&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

57
Guest Avatar
Ziba 29th March, 2017 @ 09:56

I don't know how to reply to guests on here but thank you David for your input. I spent
3 big K on the following
The whole garden refurbished by my own hands while the landlords watched vigorously.
The whole house carpeted
The whole house painted
Fixed leaks
Put fencing up to make the garden safe
Sealed the kitchen and bathroom
Filled holes because of mice problems that they refused to accept responsibility for
Deflead the property that they refused to accept responsibility for
The rest was general cosmetic works that was my own choice
Nice lights
Doors stripped and varnished
Blinds dry cleaned
Kitchen extraction fan
Gave £1600 deposit which had to be a loan
Not forgetting the move itself cost £600
Curtains sofas fridge freezer that equips decently that differs from house to house.
Last but not least the 2 month upfront rent.
Now don't get me wrong I got my deposit back and everything was done through a letting agent who were hard to fight and rent is rent but to get all this on a part time income and alone was hair ripping!
On moving out it just wasn't worth spending another £25 to remove lights, per lights. Cldnt remove the carpet, they argued the fan was theirs and provided a receipt.
The garden I did up with my bare hands in the rain. I'd love to show photos of before and after.
The council don't do jack! The back log is incredibly long and the first S21 was prior to 1st October 2015. I Didn't have a leg to stand. Quiet rightly it was their house!
Where as this current private landlord crawled out of court lol!
Thanks to the new rules he cldnt throw me out as I'd handed him a hand written letter demanding he fix the rat problem and him handing me a S21 the next day was a big mistake!
😏

58
Guest Avatar
Phil 29th March, 2017 @ 21:58

@David,

"What that means is that although rent disputes are meant to be handled by S8 the Landlord is using S21 which is supposed to be "no fault" because it costs them less."

S8 costs £325
S21 costs £355

s8 can be served on the first day of the tenancy.
s21 can only be used after the fixed term- usually 6 or 12 months.

So why do landlords use the more expensive and lengthy s21 for rent arrears when they could use s8?

Have a think about it for another 3 months then come back again with your reply.

(Clue- s8 is fucking useless.)

59
The Landlord Avatar
The Landlord 29th March, 2017 @ 22:14

So why do landlords use the more expensive and lengthy s21 for rent arrears when they could use s8?

Essentially, a section 8 comes with a lot more potential legal complications if the case goes to court, and there are plenty of opportunities for the tenant to delay the process.

It's often easier to serve a Section 21 than a Section 8 if the landlords primary objective is to gain possession of the property i.e. get rid of the tenants.

s21 can only be used after the fixed term- usually 6 or 12 months.

A S21 can be served 2 months before the end of the fixed term.

s8 is fucking useless.

Mostly, yes :)

60
Guest Avatar
David 29th March, 2017 @ 23:09

@Ziba

Well good for you but it does show that even asking can still get you kicked out, tighter regulation needed.

I always advise people to report repairs and vermin to local authority, get them to raise it with landlord in the first instance.

I am glad you won your recent case although I do feel you would be better off in social housing because the simple fact is you only ever have 2 months security in this Country.

I admire your tenacity, especially considering the hard time you have had and the fact that you are a carer for your autistic son.

The reality is that your family was vulnerable and the Council had an obligation to house you, pushing you to the private sector was not appropriate.

Keep doing what you are doing.

61
Guest Avatar
David 29th March, 2017 @ 23:25

@Phil

I do not need 3 months, as I explained it was the site that did not inform me about your comment, as flossy will atest. Of course when you are rude like that you immediately lose the argument.

S8 still requires 8 weeks in real terms because under Ground 8 eight weeks rent must be unpaid, for other ground the tenant can drag it out way longer.

The suggestion that you would serve a S8 on day 1 is just plain stupid, as if.

S21 IS cheaper because S8 is not fast track accelerated procedure and because tenants can just pay up just before it goes to Court.

So yes S8 has issues but that does not make it right to use S21, I agree with Ziba, getting rid of no fault S21.

62
Guest Avatar
Phil 29th March, 2017 @ 23:44

@Landlord,

"Essentially, a section 8 comes with a lot more potential..."

No shit Sherlock (it was one of those rhetorical type questions).

"A S21 can be served 2 months before the end of the fixed term."

I specifically said 'used' not 'served'.

Besides which, it is actually 'within the period of four months beginning with the day on which the tenancy began.'

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/21

63
Guest Avatar
Phil 29th March, 2017 @ 23:58

"S8 still requires 8 weeks in real terms because under Ground 8 eight weeks rent must be unpaid."

Try s8 Ground 10.

Come back in 3 months.

64
Guest Avatar
David 2nd April, 2017 @ 15:04

@Landlord

I do wonder about some of your landlords, were they born assholes or were they widened with a little shafting over time.

QUOTE Phil "I specifically said 'used' not 'served'."

Whatever he quotes he is refering to old law, I hope he uses that and it gets kicked out.

He does not seem to be aware that you are no longer allowed to serve/give/use ("start proceedings" is the legal definition) the Section 21 in the first four months because of the deregulation Act 2015.

It is actually a bit of a balls up, because proceedings may not be begun after the end of the period of four months beginning with the date specified in the notice.

So if it can't be until the end of the first four months and it must be more than two months after the date the notice was given, a tenancy must actually exceed 6 months, at least by a few days.

No doubt this will be tidied up at some point in the future but it can be used if tenants want to be a pain in the arse (like Phil).

Here is the link, just for Phil!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/section/36/enacted

65
Guest Avatar
Ziba 3rd April, 2017 @ 21:39

Hi David, is it possible to have an email address for you please? Are you a lawyer or just a landlord? You seem to know so much. Anyone else on here who could help re the new 1/10/15 laws? I'm puzzled with the law. It's totally bizarre but I thought it was so straight forward.
Any help please?

66
Guest Avatar
Phil 5th April, 2017 @ 08:03

Wrong again David.
The link I gave includes the Deregulation Act.
Keep trying!

67
Guest Avatar
David 5th April, 2017 @ 10:58

@Phil

Yes it has been amended which makes it even more peculiar that you quote the OLD LAW.

Oh well, don't worry about me, tell it to the Judge!

I have to say that I do like that look on faces of people like you when they are there in Court asserting your authority, telling the Judge what they MUST do, they say "but it says XYZ" and the Judge explains that the Law is more than one paragraph in one act or case law.

Then outside the cursing and anger as they storm out of the place.

Next time, I will think of you.

68
Guest Avatar
Phil 5th April, 2017 @ 11:54

You won't see me in court for a s21 Dave, I get my paperwork right so don't need a hearing.

How are you getting on with learning about the grounds for s8?

69
Guest Avatar
Phil 5th April, 2017 @ 13:49

'I have to say that I do like that look on faces of people like you when they are there in Court asserting your authority, telling the Judge what they MUST do, they say "but it says XYZ" and the Judge explains that the Law is more than one paragraph in one act or case law.
Then outside the cursing and anger as they storm out of the place.'

Been watching "Judge Judy" Dave?

70

Please leave a comment...

Nobody

Nobody

Landlord

Landlord

Tenant

Tenant

Agent

Agent

Legal

Legal

Buyer

Buyer

Developer

Developer

Enthusiast

Enthusiast