Section 21 – Notice of Possession Order Form

Under the Housing Act 1988, a landlord who has granted an assured shorthold tenancy has a legal right to get his/her property back at the end of the tenancy. For this to happen, the landlord is required to follow the correct legal procedure which includes service of a notice (under section 21 of the Housing Act 1988) on his/her tenant.

What is a section 21?

There are two types – a section 21(a) and a section 21(b). Section 21(a) is used to gain possession where the tenancy is periodic. Section 21(b) is used to gain possession where the tenancy is for a fixed term and the tenancy is at an end.

A tenancy becomes periodic when the end-period (stipulated in the contract) expires. In this case, the clauses in the contract still applies, but the contract runs on a monthly basis, aspposed to on an annual term.

Please note, if you want possession during the fixed term then it can only be obtained if a breach of contract has been proved. A Section 21 notice is not appropriate. Use a Section 8- eviction notice instead.

How much notice is required?

Section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 requires that the landlord provides tenants of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy (AST) with a minimum of two months’ notice in writing that he/she wants possession of the property.

Service Of Notice

A section 21 notice may be served by post or in person. The courts will recognise the day of postal service as the day on which the letter would normally have arrived. It is recommended that the sending of the notice is witnessed by a third party. If you decide to use the postal service, it is recommended that the notice be sent by recorded delivery and that a minimum of three working days is allowed for the notice to arrive.

Who do I address the notice to?

All the tenants must be named. As a precautionary measure, serve each individual tenant with a seperate notice. You should request that the tenants sign and return a copy to you.

Always keep a copy of the notice served and of any covering letter.

My tenant won’t leave

Once you have issued the section 21 notice on your tenant, you are required to wait until the notice has expired (this is the date given on the notice) before you can start possession proceedings.

Once the notice has expired, you should apply for an Accelerated Possession Procedure. This is a quick method for landlords to gain possession of their property, without the need for a court hearing.

Please note, a can only be used when:

• the tenancy is an assured shorthold tenancy (AST)
• there is a written form of tenancy agreement
• a valid form of section 21 notice has been served on the tenant
• the notice period (two months) in this notice has expired

If you use the procedure, you can only claim possession and your costs of making the application. You cannot, for example, include a claim for arrears of rent. The court will normally make its decision by looking at the documents (‘written evidence’) which you and your tenant provide. Because your application will be dealt with in this way, you must give the court all the written evidence it needs to make its decision at the outset.

Go to the official Accelerated Possession Procedure HMCS page for more details on how to go down this route.

Here’s a copy of the Section 21 – Notice of Possession Order Form I use with my tenants. Feel free to use it.
Section 21 – Notice of Possession Order Form

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Talk / 132 Comments

Neil wrote this on 2008-09-26 10:26:18 Hi, I have rented out my property through a letting agent.
I have never signed anything from them in terms of a agreement or contract.

Where do I stand with that?

Can I negotiate my fees, is there a legal act I can throw at them to panic them?

Help. 1

The Landlord wrote this on 2008-09-26 10:36:14 Hey Neil,

So you have tenants in your property, but your letting agent never arranged a tenancy agreement between you (the landlord) and the tenants? 2

Aunty P wrote this on 2008-09-30 09:42:55 If they provided a Terms of Business and you allowed a tenancy to commence even if you haven't signed the TOB then you have in effect agreed to thier terms and you should pay whatever was agreed at the outset.

If you wanted to negotiate fees you should have done it before engaging in business.

I hope this is helpful. 3

HELEN wrote this on 2008-10-13 20:49:41 hi there,
i have general power of attorney for a friend with cancer. his ex girlfriend is still living in his house (he's not there) after their breakup. she's paying rent but without any written agreement at all tenancy or cohabitation. do i need to serve her a section 21 form to get her to vacate? or just a letter giving 2 mths notice?
please help. thanks H 4

The Landlord wrote this on 2008-10-14 06:54:44 Hey Helen,

You'll need to serve a section 21. At the moment you have an oral agreement, which is just as binding as a shorthold tenancy agreement.

Kind regards 5

HELEN wrote this on 2008-10-14 21:47:42 Many thanks for the feedback
Kind Regards 6

HELEN wrote this on 2008-10-26 12:10:46 Hi me again. I'm serving the Sect 21 this week as Power of Attorney for my sick friend to request his ex girlfriend leaves his property, do I need to change your form to state signed: landlord/power of attorney/agent
and agents/power of attorney name and address? Also as their was no signed tenancy agmt in place just verbal with no mention of timescales (she's been living there alone for almost 18mths) should this be periodic or fixed term?
Thanks & Regards,
Helen 7

Tina wrote this on 2009-01-19 20:34:01 Hello

I was issued with a section 21 notice in September 2008 because the landlord wanted his flat back it runout on the 1 december 2008. I have been waiting for the possession order too come through but still hasn't. The council are bugging me for the order and the landlord is not replying to any of my emails or letters. I have a ten year old and I am getting really worried, can anyone give me some advise 8

Jacky wrote this on 2009-02-21 21:48:32 Hi there

I am issuing a tenant with a section 21. Can anyone tell me whether you have to get the possession order from the courts before the tenant would be rehoused by the council. 9

Aunty P wrote this on 2009-02-22 09:57:00 Hi Jacky

You are correct that most councils tell the tenants to stay in the property until a Posession Order is granted by the Courts.

Your best hope is that they find another private rebted place but that's unlikely if the new lanldord takes up references as they will probably find a trail of debt and refuse to let to them.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :-( 10

sarah wrote this on 2009-02-23 10:06:59 I am just agreeing terms on a new flat and the Landlord wants a mutual notice period of 3 months - I don't have a problem with this but is it legal? I know the HA says landlord must give minimum 2 months & tenant minimum 1 month, but can it be more and still be legally binding?
Thanks
Sarah 11

Aunty_P wrote this on 2009-02-23 11:51:51 My understanding is that it would be considered an 'Unfair term' and not enforceable if a dispute arose even though you have agreed. Think carefully before agreeing as if you had to move it is unlikely you will find a place to move into in 3 months time. Most tenancies have a two month notice from LL and one month for tenant so any properties on the market are usually available within the next 4 to 6 weeks and a LL is not likely to keep a property vacant for you while you serve the notice period.

Regards 12

jane wrote this on 2009-03-08 21:37:52 how much will it cost me for a Posession Order from the court and how long will it take to get?
and how long will it then take me to get the tenant out? help please 13

Neil wrote this on 2009-03-20 13:15:13 I have been given a section 21 (4) notice requiring possession. i have found 11 errors in the NTQ, can anyone tell me what will happen next. I think that only a court can deem it invalid, then the landlord will have to sent me another one. The Council will not rehouse me until i have a possession order. 14

vicki wrote this on 2009-04-12 09:48:19 i have been giving a section 21 notice by my landlord, i have three kids and the council have told me that the lanlord has to go to court to evict me, is that the only way he can evict me. they wont rehouse me without a court letter. is this correct or can i be rehoused without a court letter? thanks 15

Neil wrote this on 2009-04-12 09:56:54 The council will wait until you have a possession order then they will re house you. Because you have children you will get priority points, 16

Nicola wrote this on 2009-04-21 15:07:40 My agent has submitted a section 21 notice to our tennant, He said he has never recieved it. I have a copy. He had been asked to leave by 5/5/9 and yesterday sad he can't move until June. He is a single man. I am 7 months pregnant with a 8 year old and a dog and we are living in one room at my husbands mothers house. The tennant and Estate agents are aware of this and said they would move quickly. He has been offered alternative property even a 4 bedroom town house which he can stay in as a holiday let adn transfer his deposit. Will the courts act in our favor? 17

Angela wrote this on 2009-05-03 14:14:23 I am a landlord and my tenant receives DSS. The tenancy agreement ran from 10th Dec 2006 and the rent was due monthly (stated on AST). However as the tenant is DSS, and the DSS only pay 4 weekly, i receive the rent at this interval period instead. I now need to serve a section 21 notice to the tenant, but im not sure if the 2 months notice period date should end should at the end of the rent period i.e. the 9th of the month, or whether it should be the date before the rent would be paid again (although that may only be 8 weeks rather than the full 2 months). If anyone has an clarity on this point i would look forward to your advice. 18

John Hobbs wrote this on 2009-06-04 11:22:05 Do charities providing supported accommodation need a court order to evict a licensee. 19

Yvonne Rigg wrote this on 2009-07-17 16:21:41 I found my tenant through an agency about 18 months ago, he has since gone out of business. my tenant has refused to sign our agreement for over a year now and now owes me nine weeks rent, does she have any rights? I want to give her two weeks notice because of the rent arreas, can I do this or will I end up in trouble? or do I have to go the section 8 route. 20

Jools wrote this on 2009-07-17 17:04:35 Just because she wont sign does not mean that there is not an agreement in force - it is probably a stautory periodic tenancy (which automatically take over at th eend of and AST) so you will have to follow legal proceedures and issue the correct notice. Check to make sure it is the section 8 AND ensure that it is absolutely correct or it will be appealed.

If you are not a member of a landlord assoc - join one! Their advice is invaluable

Jools 21

Jools wrote this on 2009-07-17 17:08:14 Yvonne - check out http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/2008/10/12/section-8-evicting-tenants/

Jools 22

Kieran Boyle wrote this on 2009-07-22 08:36:40 I have a tenant in my property found through a letting agent tenant find service. We had a 6 month agreement in place and have continued this agreement after it expired on a monthly basis. This has worked fine up until now and the tenant has not paid this months rent. When I called to the property to speak to the tenant there was no sign of him and the neighbours stated they had not seen him for several weeks. I cannot contact him by phone either.

What do i need to do the regain the property from him to let it again. Should i serve a section 21 notice? 23

syed wrote this on 2009-08-16 09:45:27 If my landlord gives me section 21 notice is it a automatic repossession after 2 months or on court discretion? 24

john .c. wrote this on 2009-09-02 14:27:36 My mother has let her proprty to a relative who has been putting of signing the tenancy agreement for nearly twelve months now, he put up a garage without permission and enclosing the boiler flue he was made to take it down but still refuses to sign. can we serve him with a section 21 notice. 25

Jools wrote this on 2009-09-02 15:13:03 If you do not have a signed AST agreement it will not be possible to use a section 21 notice be it a or b. Special circumstances here I think as the tenancy will be assumed. I would suggest you contact your local CAB or a solicitor to check your legal position before issuing ANY notices - legal or not as the consequences for the landlord could be punative.

Jools 26

claire wrote this on 2009-09-07 19:09:49 my landlord's partner has emailed me on facebook saying if i do not pay my rent by friday (i admit im a week late) then she will throw my stuff out on the street, can she do this??
i am currently working away from the property and will not b back until xmas time. which they are full aware of.

any help would be greatful 27

Steven wrote this on 2009-09-07 20:47:55 i was issued with a section 21 notice over 3 months ago from our agent, we never heard anything since but have recently found a property which we want to move straight into. We contacted the agent who has said if we wish to move out we need to give 1 months notice from the 23rd (our original rent date) this means about 6 weeks from when we contacted them. Is this ok for them to do? I thought as they had issued the section 21 notice we could move out at any time afyter the 2 months were up, please help!!! 28

Aunty P wrote this on 2009-09-08 19:14:43 Claire, I'm not sure about the legality of threatening to throw your stuff on the stree. It probably depends on what type of contract you have and who it's with.

But I've got to say - why don't you just pay your rent and be a good tenant? 29

james wrote this on 2009-10-05 20:09:26 I'm stuck with a tenant from hell and need some informed advise, please! I am a landlord and let an apartment to a tenant on 1/5/2008 on 6 month AST, she stopped paying 2 months into the agreement and only today (3 months on) was the heraring under section 8. It was adjorned because the tenant decided to defend herself on the grounds she was ill and has suffered distress and is now depressed due to my actions!! No rent payments nor any contact was made by her. I only went to the property on 1 day, was not abusive etc as she would not answer the door, and she called the police and were present the whole time and advised me to not contact or come to the property at all, and persue it through the courts. Apart from this she has only received letters from me, prior to this day. I followed the advise from the police and have never been to the property since. She is now suing me for £15,000 damages!! Is this right? At the time of the initial section 8 we served a section 21, but I am unclear as to how this works. I realise it ends at the end of the tenancy, but do I have to go back to court to get her out of the property, if she has not left? 30

Twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-10-06 08:01:34 Claire - she is not allowed to throw your stuff out on the street. She has to get a court order to do so. I agree with Aunty P - make sure your rent is paid on time - makes life much easier!

Steven: Section 21 notice is a notice to quit. Remind them of the fact that they sent you it. Mind you - they should have checked that you HAD moved out at the end of the statutory period. Tell em to F*** off!

James: The problem is this. Did you serve a section 8 or 21 (There are two types of section 21) If you did not serve the correct one you are fucked. You cannot guess when it comes to serving notices - it will always bite you on the arse.

This is the problem with so called amateur landlords who think they can make a quick buck by renting a property with no clue as to the law. It is also where joining a LAndlord Association helps as you can get free legal advice once you have joined and for what they charge it is priceless.

James; I would suggest you get your story sorted properly before going before a judge. Get some legal advice - you are going to have to stick your hand in your pocket for that I am afraid. Given the fact that judges hate landlords I can only suggest that you bend over and prepare for the worst. You could ask the judge for mercy and ask him for some lube before he shafts you. I think that £15k is a bit ambitious but who knows with the legal world today.

TB 31

Vandy seng wrote this on 2009-10-06 21:28:20 Hello,
When I took the deposit from the tenant on 28.06.08, I did not know or did not put the deposit in the scheme, on 28.08.09 I put the deposit in the firm called DPS, now the tenant want to sue me and want to take me to court as I did not put the deposit in the scheme after 14days of receiving it, unless I pay the tenant £1950 which is the amount 3times of the deposit, please advise me what I shall do?
Thanks 32

The Landlord wrote this on 2009-10-07 05:51:42 Hey Vandy,
Since you've secured the deposit, I don't think your tenant can sue you. Please go refer to this article, I Haven’t Protected My Tenants Deposit Into A Scheme With In 14 Days 33

Vandy seng wrote this on 2009-10-11 16:23:22 Hello,
The tenancy agreement start 28.06.08 to 27.12.08 and tenancy agreement start another 6 months from 28.12.08 to 27.06.09.The tenancy agreement was going start and grant it from 28.06.09 to 27.06.2010, but was never renewed or signed by both party.She did not pay August rent, Sept rent paid but Oct rent has 13days overdue.
I want to evict this tenant, will I need to serve her section 21 or section 8? if served with Section 21 which day I should start to served her?
Pleas advise. Thanks 34

twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-10-11 16:43:14 Vandy,

So the tenancy is now statutory periodic is that correct?

Twattybollocks 35

Vandy seng wrote this on 2009-10-11 16:56:03 I do not know and Tenant & me do not have the agreement.

Please advise Which Section do I need to served her? And which dat?

Thanks
Vandy 36

twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-10-11 17:03:50 Begs the question why are you a Landlord when you have no clue as to something as basic as ensuring the document was signed or whether the AST is actually and AST or SPT.

Not prepared to advise as if you serve the incorrect document you will be laughed out of court and quite possibly forced to pay the tenant a penalty.

If you cant be arsed keeping such basic documents then you should not be a landlord - sorry - simple as that. Just looked at the previous post regarding you not knowing about protecting the deposit. Frankly, your stupidity is frightening!

Twattybollocks 37

Vandy seng wrote this on 2009-10-11 17:41:56 Hello
The tenancy now is statutory periodic, which date do I need to served?

Thanks
Vandy 38

mark smith wrote this on 2009-10-22 15:11:26 I have a tenent in my house his 6 month shorthold expired last May. It has not been renewed.

I have also recently discovered my tenent has taken on a lodger/tenent in breach of the origional shorthold agreement. I want them both out and they wont comply mutually.

How would you suggest procede ? cost is an issue for me and my tenent does make his payments ususally on time. 39

Aunty P wrote this on 2009-10-22 16:28:26 In reply to Mark Smith, taking into account the rent is paid on time, I wonder why why you want them out? You could start a new tenancy with them both named as tenants on the new agreement as an alternative to serving notice. Bear in mind that rents are dropping and you could end up with a gap between tenancies meaning no income while you find a new tenant.

If you really want them out, you must serve a Section 21a as it sounds as if they are in a periodic tenancy. If they don't leave on the last day of the tenancy you would have to go to court to get an order that they must leave.

Good luck
Aunty P 40

twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-10-22 16:38:21 Aunty P - he wants them out because the tenant has broken the terms of the tenancy agreement by moving someone else in without permission! If you let them get away with something as serious as this with just a "how about renewing" they will try something more serious in the future.

YOU have to be in control afterall You (well not you him!) are the landlord.

TB 41

Aunty P wrote this on 2009-10-22 16:54:01 Hi Twattybollocks, I understand where you're coming from but if the property is kept in good order and the rent paid on time I would rather have a new TA than serve notice. It could also be an opportunity to increase the rent a little. It's not renewing the TA as they are already in a periodic. Of course if there are other problems with the tenancy I'd say evict them.

My advice is based on simple economics. If we were in a bouyant market I'd consider serving notice, but we're in a downturn and it's not getting better yet. I've used this method where I have otherwise good tenants and it's ALWAYS worked for me. No void period, no expense and worry finding new tenants and most of all no hassle. My experience in the last six months is that it's a tenants market and I would probably have a void period in between tenancies and have to reduce the rent to get new tenants so losing even more income. If Mark serves notice and they are difficult or refuse to leave then you have to add in a load of unecessary stress and more expense. I've done this several times and it works beautifully.

I find a a bit of give and take works wonders sometimes! 42

mark smith wrote this on 2009-10-22 16:54:04 Thanks for the quick response

One of them is on housing as a sole tenent. If they find out they will stop/reduce my tenents rent i suspect as he is on the maximum a single male is entitled. He is lying to dss and i suspect i will be the one that will suffer when they stop his entitlement ! 43

Aunty P wrote this on 2009-10-22 16:57:27 Perhaps you ought to serve notice then Mark. Be prepared for the coucil to refuse to rehouse him until you get a court order though. That's how our local council deals with evicted claimants. Hopefully your local council may be different than mine.

Good luck 44

Tina wrote this on 2009-10-22 17:11:02 Hi there

I wrote a little while ago about being issued with a section 21, well earlier this year I went to the council who said to me that I had to wait for a eviction noticem so my little worm of a landlord decided that he would delay it as he was heard saying "I'm not letting that bit** and her daughter get one over on me, so we wont go to court until I say so", In the meantime I got myself a solicitor who because of a lot of repairs were not done sent someone to do a survey, it came back " a highly dangeorous place to live with major repairs to be done, and condemed it. I went back to the council who straight away placed us in a hostle, 5 weeks later we got a 2 bedroom council place, and the landlord, well I sued him for stress and for not doing repairs and I won over £10,000, hes not smiling now, and when he sees me, he puts his head down. 45

twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-10-22 18:36:10 @AuntyP: Aunty - only the original tenant is on the periodic. The other is an unauthorised person with no TA to the landlord as the tenant installed him without telling the landlord.

TB 46

Aunty P wrote this on 2009-10-22 19:28:48 Oh dear, twatty, point scoring are we? I 'll give you a point but I think you knew what I meant! 47

twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-10-22 19:39:22 Not interested in point scoring Aunty - just accuracy - after all if we as landlords are not accurate we get screwed! 48

mark smith wrote this on 2009-10-22 20:00:13 i did nt choose to be a bloodly landlord ! unfortunatly it was my only soddin option in a bad economic climate ! 49

mick c wrote this on 2009-11-12 21:09:25 Hi im currently letting my dwelling house out. The tenant is on a (AST) agreement. The start date was 1st October end date is 30th april 2010. My question is on what date do i give 2 months notice and do i have to issue them with a section 21 notice if so what date do i issue it. Thank's

Mick 50

Twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-11-12 21:23:03 Hey Mick,

Thats a seven month tenancy right?

TB 51

mick c wrote this on 2009-11-12 21:27:27 sorry my mistake TB its a six month from the 1st of october this year! 52

Danny wrote this on 2009-11-13 16:40:48 Hi, just a quick simple question that no-body seems to know the answer to. How long after a validl s21 has expired can it still be used to obtain a possession order? 53

Danny wrote this on 2009-11-13 16:56:28 Sorry, just re-read my question and if I ask it like that, no-body else will be able to answer it. What I meant is How long after a valid s21 has expired, is it still valid to be used in court to obtain a possession order?

i.e. How long after it has expired can you still use it? 54

VICTOR TREVOR wrote this on 2009-11-16 13:44:55 My landlord is being sued by his building society for possession on the grounds that he apparently is in arrears under his mortgage.

I have only been sent a copy of the notice of commencement of possession proceedings in the local county court, addressed to me, not by name but to "the occupier".

As I understand it the lenders are under an obligation (just like a landlord) to serve a Section 21 Notice.

Is this correct?

Thank you very much 55

MIch wrote this on 2009-11-26 13:02:29 Hi - I have a tenant from hell! was somebody I knew from years back - not a friend just someone I knew. She is always late with rent and never pays the whole amount. She has trashed my house but blamed it on previous tenant (her son and girlfriend incidentally). I have served her with a S21 and must now get an Order for possession. However I have seen on here that tenants sue the landlord for thousands of pounds for not doing repairs. SHe caused all the damage and I dont want to put it all right til she is out - does anyone know if she can still sue me because believe me this one knows every trick in the book. 56

twattybollocks wrote this on 2009-11-26 13:11:12 @Mich: Unfortunately unless you have an Inventory that proves the condition of the property on tenant move in you are screwed. It will be your word against hers and since most judges/magistrates hate landlords you are going to have to take one for the team.

You have left yourself vunerable by not getting the schedule of condition done (Sorry - assuming you don't have one as you have not mentioned it).

TB 57

Danny wrote this on 2009-11-26 17:16:09 How long after a valid s21 has expired, is it still valid to be used in court to obtain a possession order? i.e. if the section 21 expired on 26 November 2009, could I still go to court 3 months later and get a possesion order? If not what is an acceptable time limit? 58

Vandy seng wrote this on 2009-11-27 20:04:44 Hi, I have served my tenant with section 21 will expired after 27.12.09, so far the tenant is 2months in arrears, can i serve her with section 8?, the only thing the tenant is going to argue that she has kept one month for the material she has spent for bathroom which I did not approved or agreed, the only thing I agreed to pay for sands & cements, the rest like wall & floor tile & grouts have been supplied by me which at the time she agreed, so 2months in arrears still count or not? do I have to wait after 27.12.09 and then instruct a solicitor to apply to the court to my property back? is there any ways that I can apply to the court in order to get my property back myself by avoiding using a solicitor as solicitor cost too much money? what sort of forms that I can use to get my property back?

Looking to hearing from you soon,

VS Chea 59

Ann-Marie H wrote this on 2009-11-30 18:44:03 Hi,
I was served a section 21 by the agent because of a noise complaint (once) because they said it showed the landlord that it looked like they were doing something about the complaint however said on the quiet that we could stay and that if they had another complaint we would have to move straight out....however there hasnt been any more complaints and our rent is up to date but we have now found a new property to move to. as per the section 21 we should have moved out 2 months ago but no one has told us we had to go so we carried on paying but now we have been told that we have to give a months notice even though we were issued notice and that is why we are moving? I have spoken to a legal advisor and he has said that we could actually move out tomorrow and that there's nothing the agents can do but just wondered if anyone else knew what we should be doing as we dont want to lose our new property and want to move in in 2 weeks?
Thanks 60

Ash wrote this on 2009-12-01 14:02:54 Interesting one VICTOR TREVOR.

My understanding is that only IF the landlord has consent to let the property from the mortgage company will they recognise your tenancy.

If he is letting it without permission, i'm afraid they will not recognise your tenancy, you will not be allowed a voice at the possession hearing and you'll be out on your arse! 61

Dene wrote this on 2009-12-08 13:11:27 Advice please

I have a tenant who stopped paying the rent a couple of months ago, and has also stopped making contact - phone not in use, no response to letters, never in when I call. Can I assume that they have left willingly, even though they have left some possessions in the flat, and so just change the locks and re-let the property ? I have served a section 21 at the property, but it remains unopened. How long do I have to leave the property apparantly abandoned before I can take it back - tenancy has 2 months to run. Thanks for comments 62

Jools wrote this on 2009-12-08 13:40:28 Dene,

You cannot assume they have left - they may be on a long holiday or in prison!! You cannot do anything until you either get surrender from the current tenant or re-possesion by the courts.

If you re-let without the proper paperwork you will be liable for illegal eviction. I would have a chat with a suitably qualified professional regarding your case.

Even if you do get possesion you will have to store the tenants belongings for a time before you can sell them under the 'Torts' legislation.

Don't do anything rash.

Jools 63

oliver wrote this on 2009-12-08 19:29:05 I have tennants in a house under a 6 month Shorthold agreement they have been in for approx 2 years and continue to get behind with rental payments. I have issued them with notice under section 21 giving them 2 months to exit. I intend to move back into my property as soon as it is vacated do i have any way of speeding up the eviction ? 64

kayla wrote this on 2009-12-23 12:29:10 hi can someone give me some advise, i have been renting a property through an agency for 6 months, my last property was also rented with these people so when i moved into the property i am at the moment i have been waiting for my deposit from the last property to pay the first months rent (note-deposit hasnt been paid to me for me to pay the first months rent even though i have been here for 6 months and continued to pay rent from second month onwards) as i am always a month behind on rent due to not yet recieving my deposit (which will, like i said go on the first months rent) i am usually good at paying rent on time. just recently i have had a baby who is 3 weeks old and my pregnancy wasnt so good so last month i paid rent pretty late and they are still waiting for this months rent (december) which is 6 days overdue at the moment. i had a voice message this morning telling me they have served me with two weeks to vacate the property and another said that they will threaten me with it. im so confused as i havent recieved no letters from them.
to be honest i dont want to live in this house due to the state of it. theres mould everywhere, damp, cold, no central heating just those crappy plug-in heaters, the bathroom is damp which is causing a massive leak in the kitchen, the list goes on. i am a single mother of 2 boys, 18 months old and 3 weeks old and the place isnt hygenic at all. the house is slowly showing itself to me, just looks like the landord has been doing touch ups over the years just to get tenants in. the only thing that has been done is the overflow pipe which had been leaking for a month!! (which now my water bill is very high)and havent heard nothing since to sort out the bathroom leak which my water bill will be yet another high bill and yet they are still stressing me about rent. i am so fed up i may be forced to take action as the house is so vile (cant even hang mine or my childrens clothes up as the mould just leaches on to them within a few days).
so if or when they do serve me with this 2 weeks notice could i seek help from someone about the state of this house and about the deposit they havent given me? many thanks kayla. 65

james wrote this on 2009-12-23 16:14:17 Kayla, the deposit is held with a deposit scheme provider, such as DPS and you should chase these guys about it. You should never use deposit as means to pay for rent, it'll probably be in your tenancy agreement, fo this to be the case. As for rent, just pay up and be a good tenant. I am a landlord and it is so frustrating when bad tenants pay late or do not pay at all. With regards to the condition of the house, the is something that you should have thought about before renting it, rather then trying to hold the landlord ransom in some way. Everyone has personal issue's but bills need to be paid, on time! 66

frances wrote this on 2010-01-05 18:32:45 help, my partner has lived in his home for nine years, only had a verbal agreement, rent has never been missed or late, two owners have had a fall out one wanted to sell and one didn't,we got a letter from the one who wants to sell solicitor telling us to be out on jan 14 there is a buyer, the other owner is refusing to sign anything, what i need to no is how much time we are allowed before we have to move. it does'nt say that it is a section 21 letter. 67

jools wrote this on 2010-01-05 19:00:07 If he has lived there for so long an AST is implied by the fact that the landlord has received the rent and provided a home for the past 9 years. As such if the landlord wants him out they will have to get a possesion notice via the courts and they have to give the correct notice. Write back to the solicitors stating that he will do no such thing and if any attempt is made to enter the property by the landlord or his agents he will sue them for tresspass and illegal eviction. Contact your local housing advice centre for further information. The only people allowed to evict people/remove propert are court appointed bailiffs.

Jools 68

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-01-05 21:09:19 Jools, I really love reading your advice, it's fair, clear and always spot on from the legal point of view.

Just thought you'd enjoy a bit of feedback, keep up the good work!! 69

frances wrote this on 2010-01-06 16:22:57 hey jools; thankyou so much for ur reply, just got another letter in to day from same solicitor, not so much bothered about it now now we know they cant just put us out. thanks again. 70

Jools wrote this on 2010-01-06 17:10:56 @AuntyP: Thanks for that - its always nice when your auntie approves!

@Frances: My pleasure - however I am not a lawyer so you really need to take proper advice ASAP. Don't assume they won't try to do something so get prepared by speaking to your local citizens advice office TOMORROW!!!

jools 71

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-01-06 17:15:39 Jools - lol, stupid name I know. It was the first thing that came into my head when I wanted to post a comment and I felt like an Agony Aunty! 72

Jools wrote this on 2010-01-07 09:54:25 actually Auntie I think it's quite a good one!! Perhaps we should ask you more questions?

Jools 73

Aunty_P wrote this on 2010-01-07 10:19:04 Jools, Noooooooo thanks. You're doing just fine and obviously know far more than me! 74

frances wrote this on 2010-01-07 17:43:38 hi Jools, me again, i did'nt say we live in Belfast, from what im hearing the law is different here, apparently 28 days is the right amount of notice, not much we can do now, does'nt seem fair. just thought i'd keep yo informed, thanks again for all your help. 75

Dominic Jenkinson wrote this on 2010-01-18 22:29:35 Hey thanks to all the people who have been giving advice.

I need to serve a section 21 on a periodic tenancy. The tenant is DSS. Do I serve according to the date the DSS pay the rent or the date according to the original 6 month AST agreement? Thanks 76

mary boyle wrote this on 2010-01-29 09:25:39 Hi,
I have my property rented out with full management on AST. In the contract there is Break Clause which states 'The Landlord may bring the tenancy to an endat any time before the expiry of the fixed term ( but not within 6 months of the commencement date) by giving to the tenant at least 2 months written notice stating that the landlord requires possession of the property. A notice under section 21 of the Housing act 1988 will suffice to implement this sub-clause.'
Can someone out there advise how to go about doing this, whether the letting agent would do this or myself? many, many thanks 77

jools wrote this on 2010-01-29 09:47:25 Your contract appears to be with the management company and they with the tenant so contact them and ask them to serve. Unless of course you signed the AST. You need to establish the contract route! Hope this helps. Jools 78

mary boyle wrote this on 2010-01-29 09:53:36 The letting agents are the ones who signed the AST on behalf of me. I'm very hesitant to ask them if they can serve the notice, due to the fact they dont seem to be working for me but thats another story!.I just wanted to make I can serve this notice on the tenant and that i'm reading the contract right and not seeing things! Thanks very much for your reply:) 79

jools wrote this on 2010-01-29 09:59:34 In theory it should be them! Make them work for you hard earned!!! If you are dumping them what the hell! You could serve the notice but you run the risk of getting involved as the middleman/woman if it goes nuts up. Let them serve and you can have the pleasure of bollocking the agents! Well worth the management fee I can tell you!!! 80

mary boyle wrote this on 2010-01-29 10:06:05 Ok, YES, it would actually give me great pleasure to do this. When do you think I should tell The Agency about my intention to do this? The 6 months would be up end of March which is when it would be ok to serve. So, i plan to have tenant out by end of may..? Thanks :) 81

Andy wrote this on 2010-01-31 22:18:29 We have just been given 2 month notice to leave under section 21 after only 6 month into tenancy (12 month agreement) since landlord wants to sell otherwise no problem. We want to leave in one month! Can landlord force us to stay 2 month?
Any advice is much appreciated.
Andy 82

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-01 15:01:12 As your Landlord has already served you notice, you can serve him one months notice in return but do make sure it is on the date of your tenancy started for example if your agreement started on the 3rd, your notice must be delivered to the Landlord on the 3rd and dated the 3rd. Always get the landlord to sign a receipt for the letter too, just in case. 83

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-01 15:37:43 Mary Boyle, I would get the Agent to do it for you thats what your paying them for, i would also keep a note of any phone calls you have with your agents ie dates and times, I have come across some Micky mouse agents in my time so if they mess it up, you will at least have the proof to blame them. 84

maryboyle wrote this on 2010-02-01 17:48:15 Thank you so so much form your advice. The tenancy will be 6 months up end of March which is when the notice should be served. When do you think I should let the Agency know of my intention to go forward with this?? thanks 85

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-01 19:31:30 I would give them plenty of notice so asap really confirm over the phone and put in the writing to the agent with the date on and keep a copy for yourself. Also as the Agents are manageing the property they have a duty to inspect the property one week prior to the Tenants leaving in order for them to put in writing anything the tenants have damaged in order for them to have it as it was rented out. Then the day the Tenants leave they have to do a final inspection before releasing their bond to them. I would also do an inspection yourself the day after they move out in case the Agents miss anything. The Agents are only allowed to keep the bond for 14 days. Are you not happy with the Agents or the Tenants and thats why you want the property back? If your not happy with Agents there are ways to get out of your agreement with them. just becareful if your thinking of renting again without them that you have terminated the contract with the Agents too. Agents TOB is normally 2 months notice aswel. Hope this helps. 86

Andy wrote this on 2010-02-01 20:46:48 Thank you Lisa,
It seems we missed this opportunity but we will remember this. Not a lot of people know this.
All the best,
Andy 87

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-01 20:52:25 Hi Mary, Regarding instructing the agency to serve notice on the tenants, give them as much notice as possible, in writing, and make sure you read the terms of business (TOB)in your agency agreement with them so you won't be penalised especially if you aren't reletting.

Regarding Lisas advice on the agency inspecting 1 week before the tenants move out etc. This will depend entirely on your agreement. I've never come across this in a standard TOB although they may do it for an extra fee if you insist. A good agent will have done inspections at least every three months so will have a good idea what to expect and will have been keeping on top of any issues caused by the tenant. An inspection prior to leaving is pretty much a waste of time in my opinion. Until all the tenants belongings and furniture (if applicable), are gone no one an possibly carry out a proper inspection. Also, if tenants don't keep a property decent during the tenancy, it's because they either don't care or they don't have a clue how to keep house. An extra inspection is unlikely to make the slightest bit of difference. That's why we get a deposit! The deposit can be used if necessary to compensate the landlord if the tenants have caused damage, not cleaned etc or removed landlords items. But don't expect to get the property back in exactly the same condition as when they moved in. You have to allow for fair wear and tear. 88

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-01 21:04:28 Mary, BTW, the end of tenancy check-out will also be subject to your TOB with the agency although I would expect it to be included on a full management contract. But check to see who pays for the check-out. The 14 days Lisa refers to for return of the bond are guidelines and they only work when there are no dilapidations. If there are, then the agent/landlord must get quotes for necessary works, get the tenants agreement and return the balance of the deposit to the tenant within 14 days. All this is in an ideal world of course! If the tenant disputes the charges then it can take a bit longer to negotiate. 89

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-01 21:37:44 Hi I agree with Aunty p about the 3 months inspections but having said that as an Agent myself a lot can happen in 3 months. It is very advisible for the Agent to inspect at least 1 week prior to the Tenants leaving, as by law when it comes to releasing deposits the Landlord or their Agent have to have given a reasonable time period ie 7 days notice to fix anything prior to them leaving and it has to be put in writing in case of a dispute(the biggest flaw is not enough time was given to the Tenants to put right any changes). I have been working as an agent for Tenants and Landlords for almost 20 years and I am a member of the ARLA, NAEA and the Ombudsman, you will be supprised of how the slightest details that are missed can leave the Landlord out of pocket. Tenants have a lot more rights than Landlords unforunatly. Also it should be standard in most Tenancy agreements with an acredited Agent that an inspection prior to leaving will take place. Have a look in your copy of the Tenancy agreement,section 3(i)3(m)3(n)3(o) and 3(p) this will detail it all for you. Aunty p is right about wear and tear but in a 6 month period i would not expect too much.Also if you have time read section 3(k)(cleaning)and section 4,4a up to 4i this section is restrictions on the Tenants and includes everything from not able to put a nail up to making sure the garden is kept tidy. My advice to Landlords renting or thinking of renting please do not use a tenancy agreement from the high street, these do not cover you for much and do not stand up to much if you did have to take a Tenant to court. My Tenancy agreements are by the National Ass of Estate Agents and are 13 pages long and cover a great deal. 90

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-01 22:50:38 Just a quick one for Dominic Jenkinson, you need to serve the section 21 notice in accordance with your Tenancy agreement not the date the DSS pay you. Please be aware you need to serve the required 2 months on the right day, so many people do not know this. It has to be the same date the Tenancy started so if it started on the 3rd you have to date the notice for the 3rd and make sure it has been received and signed for by the Tenant before the 3rd. Please be aware Dss Tenants have lots of help, If your Tenants are hoping to get Socail Housing they will be advised of the following. The Tenant does not have to move out until the section 21 notice has expired and the Landlord has court proceedings in place(please note you can not apply to the courts until the section 21 notice has expired this can take up to a month just for a date and at a cost to the Landlord of £150 depending on where your located)If the Tenants still refuses to leave(which if their local Council can not provide for them will advise them)you will then have to apply for the court bailiffs to attend eviction. Be aware though if you have not fufilled your obligations as a Landlord down to the T the Courts will rule in favor of the Tenant and you can only reapply after all terms of the agreement have been met. If you are on good terms with your Tenant I always find it helps and saves you costs to help them look for another private accommdation and give them a good referance if they are good. 91

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-01 22:56:22 I still think an inspection in the last week of a tenancy is pointless unless it's a scheduled one and then I'd go ahead. The last thing a tenant who is moving needs is an inspection, it could be considered as harrasment. A well worded and comprehensive standard pre-checkout letter detailing what the tenants have to do before leaving covers the reasonable time mentioned, and even without one the AST agreement outlines tenant responsibility. How's this for a scenario that illustrates what a waste of time an extra inspection is? Did an inspection one week before tenants left. Property 10/10 on all counts. Check-out day comes round and guess what? They had a leaving party and the place needed professional cleaning, carpets and all. No worries though, the deposit covered it and plenty to give back to the tenants. I've had similar where damage has been hidden by rugs, furniture or boxes etc. It all comes to light on check-out day anyway.

A touch of common sense is what's needed most of the time and most people, (LLs and Ts) are reasonable. If they aren't then visits, nicely worded letters, threats etc won't change anything.

Lisa, why does an ARLA member use an NAEA AST and not an ARLA one? 92

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-01 22:59:45 Lisa/Dominic,

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Nooooo, that's so wrong! It has to be dated the 2nd. I'll stand corrected if I've got this wrong but I'm 99.99999% sure about this. 93

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-01 23:29:46 ARLA and NAEA are the same group The Tenancy Agreement is done by NAEA for the porpose of Esate Agents that rarly do lettings but are still covered under the ARLA terms therefore the NAEA rubber stamped it. Also an inspection prior to Tenants leaving is not considered harrasment as it is stated in the agreement and by signing it they agree to the terms. I agree with the leaving pary thing, anything could happen in as little as a week which is why i said earlier anything can happen in 3 months. But for a Landlord to be fully proctected the prior inspection has to take place in oreder to give them a detailed list of corrections. If and when it had to go to court the Landlord is fully covered and any extra damage that the bond does not cover can be made through the courts. Belive me commen sence prevails in the courts now days, they have the view its not on paper you lose. I have had a recent case where the Tenants were great for the whole period of their agreement, rent on time, inspections good, reported any problems, however final inspection a few bits were put into writing to them to correct, they called me to ask what time I would be there to do the handover, I gave them a time and when I arrived they had already gone along with the white goods 3k worth and the reminants of a party. As i had done everything by the book it became a police matter they were taken to court and given very heavy penalties. Its very rare a Landlord wins now days which is why I go by the book. 94

maryboyle wrote this on 2010-02-02 09:11:01 A big Thank you for all the advice you have provided. It has been a big help and certainly alot more clearer. I'm not serviving Section 21 to re-let with another Agent but simply to sell the property. Thanks once again...shall get to work..! :) 95

Aunty_P wrote this on 2010-02-02 10:01:14 Sorry Lisa, the more you write the more I completely disagree. I don't want to spend my time getting into disagreements on this forum but I have to correct the advice you are giving 'cos it's just plain incorrect.

The NAEA and ARLA aren't the same, they are two organisations coming under the NFPP. That's why they had different documents and why you aren't using an ARLA T/A. Since the property crash lots of Estate Agents diverted into Lettings without full training in order to stay afloat. Many ARLA members are aghast at some of the loose practises that resulted. BTW Lisa, I'm not suggesting that you are one of them, just reporting a fact. I note you said you have been an LA for 20 years but then how come you advised Dominic wrongly about dating the S21? Maybe it was a typo.

Regarding the advice on when to serve the S21, I stand by my comment 100%. The date it should be served in the example you gave is the 2nd. If not dated correctly the S21 could be unenforceable.

Regarding the harassment comment, I'm sure you know that just because someone signs a TA it doesn't automatically follow that the terms are fair and enforceable. The tenants are entitled to object to said inspection one week before check-out. As a tenant I probably would. Imagine being up to your ears in packing, dealing with all the stress of moving and the agent insists on doing an extra inspection.

In your example above the prior inspection made no difference, either to the tenants taking LL possessions or the outcome as far as subsequent legal action. Theft is theft and legal remedies can be applied as long as you can prove the items were there at the start of the tenancy and gone at the end. The things that make the difference in the courts are the T/A, inventory, check-in and check-out reports. The latter three should ideally be prepared by an Independent Professionally qualified Inventory Clerk so the L/A or LL can't be accused of bias in disputes or if legal action becomes necessary.

As I said before, I'll stand corrected and apologise if I'm wrong but I'm confident that isn't the case. 96

maryboyle wrote this on 2010-02-02 11:37:15 Hi guys, I have just noticed at the top of this page under 'What is a Section 21?' it states and I quote ' if you want possession during the fixed term then it can only be obtained if a breach of contract has been proved'. My contract has a Break Clause and specifically states 'The lanlord may bring the tenancy to an end at anytime before the expiry of the fixed term (but not within 6 months of the commencement date)by giving to the tenant at least 2 month's written notice stating that the Lanlord requires posssession of the property. A notice under section 21 of the Housing act 1988 will suffice to implement this this sub-clause'.
There is no mention of breach of contract to be proved.
Am I missing something? can I still go ahead and get the Agent to serve notice under section 21 (b) I just want repossession of my property so I can sell it? Thank you 97

Aunty_P wrote this on 2010-02-02 13:07:38 Hi Mary, what date did the tenancy commmence? What is the length of the fixed term as stated in the T/A? What date do you ideally want to regain possesion of your property? Probably the best thing to do is the check with the agent. It's a bit tricky answering queries like this on a forum without sight of the paperwork.

ATB 98

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-02 13:17:53 I thought you would disagree, I am interested to know where you are getting your information from. I thought this site was to help people not confuse them. FYI you have to be a L A with at least five years experiance to even be considered to join the ARLA and NAEA and then sit a number of exams rangeing from the past and present law of letting and sales you also have to get a 92% pass rateor more to be able to join.(I got 100%). As a member you have to do ongoing training as part of your commitment, we are subject to spot checks and inspections. I am the Director of my company the advice I give is always current. Also are you a Tenant or a Landlord as in your comment no 92 u state u have had a Tenants hide things with boxes ect, but then in comment 98 ur saying as a Tenant u would object to an inspection 1 week prior to leaving.I have never had one single Tenant dispute an inspection in my 20 years of my profession Regarding your following comment that you made "I'm sure you know that just because someone signs a TA it doesn't automatically follow that the terms are fair and enforceable"

The terms may not seem fair to all Tenants, however they are given the agreement before the Tenancy is due to commence and advised to read through it, if they are not happy they do not have to sign it. Once it has been signed it does become inforceable or what would be the point of having an agreement signed in the first place. Please do not think that i am in favor of either a Tenant or a Landlord just the correct way of doing things to protect both parties. As I said earlier there are some Micky Mouse companys out there and I agree with you on the fact that many started renting to keep afloat during the downturn and just do not have a clue. ARLA & NAEA are not compulsory yet but it does sort the bad from the good. I do not claim to know all there is to know that would be arrogant of me, however having a law degree under my belt and being a member of 3 professional bodies puts me in good stead to give proper advice. 99

Aunty_P wrote this on 2010-02-02 14:01:31 Lisa, I have work to do and I don't have time to get involved in forum disputes. Some of your advice is correct but some is wrong. To take away the confusion I have corrected it.

And you are at it again, quote from post 101 - Once it has been signed it does become inforceable or what would be the point of having an agreement signed in the first place. - Wrong! Look up the OFT guidance on TAs.

If you don't like it I'm sorry, it's not personal. I don't claim to be an expert in all areas of lettings but I know my facts about the points we've discussed and I'm a bit picky about getting facts right when dispensing advice. 100

Twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-02 14:33:08 I agree with Aunty!

OK I know you have probably fallen over!!!!!

There is something called the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. These overcomplicated peices of legislation say that, even though a contract has been signed, it will not be enforceable if the terms are unfair. This can only happen with a consumer. It does not cover companies.

For example: If you get someone to sign an AST in which you the landlord state that smoking is not allowed - it could be deemed an unfair contract term due to the fact as soon as the AST is signed it is technically no longer your house!

OR if you state that the tenants must not put up arials, sky dishes, not have pets etc. You have to include the term "such permission will not necessarily be witheld" other wise you are screwed if they decide to take you to court.

Lisa does having a law degree and membership of three professional bodies give you the inabillity to spell correctly?

As far as I am aware you cannot serve a section 21 notice to quit DURING the fixed term. You can issue it DURING but you have to wait until AFTER the fixed term has ended to get them out - essentiall they have an additional 2 months after the fixed term has ended. If you wish to get them out DURING the fixed term you have to use a section 8 - surely you would have known this Lisa given your professional qualifications! But even then you have to specify the grounds AND it has to be approved by the courts. The Landlord cannot just serve notice because he wants the house back or wants to sell!

@Andy: You have to be issued a section 8 notice NOT a section 21 notice. The landlord Cannot remove you BEFORE the end of the fixed term. Even then - not sure if it is enforceable under ground 2.

Being a member of ARLA means sod all! Just because you are a so called member or display their logo does not mean you will always obey their rules of conduct. I have an ex letting agent who was a member of ARLA and they did sod all when I complained that one of their members was, lets say, being far from truthful when it came to dealing with her clients.

Details can easily be found here: http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/section-21-notice-to-quit.htm

TB 101

Twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-02 14:35:28 And before you ask - I meant essentially!!

TB 102

maryboyle wrote this on 2010-02-02 14:39:19 I'm Lost!!! so can I serve section 21 or no can do?? help! 103

Twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-02 14:58:08 OK

You CAN serve a section 21 DURING the fixed term BUT you cannot get them to move out BEFORE the fixed term has ended. So you can serve 2 months into a 6 month tenancy BUT you have to wait for two months AFTER the fixed term has ended before they are legally required to move.

A section 8 notice may be served during a fixed term BUT it is only enforceable on certain grounds, one of which is ground 2 that states that: "The property is subject to a mortgage which pre-dates the tenancy and the mortgagees are repossessing the property to enforce the charge. Written notice should be given before or at the time the tenancy begins that possession may be required under this ground.

Ground 12 states: The Tenant has breached any term of the tenancy agreement (other than the ones relating to the payment of rent).

Once again the grounds have to approved by the courts - so saying you want the house back because you want to sell it is not likely to get you possession.

You need to take PROPER LEGAL ADVICE about this! This site is for giving general advice only and if you wish to rely on advice which you may need to use in court then you need to contact someone with the correct professional indemnity. Whilst very useful - this area of law is complex and if you get it wrong you will be screwed to the floor by the courts!

Your contract break clause states that: 'The lanlord may bring the tenancy to an end at anytime before the expiry of the fixed term (but not within 6 months of the commencement date)by giving to the tenant at least 2 month's written notice stating that the Lanlord requires posssession of the property. A notice under section 21 of the Housing act 1988 will suffice to implement this this sub-clause'. So if it is a six month AST you cannot do anything to get them out untill after the fixed term has ended.

The important bit is the "not within 6 months of the commencement date".

As far as I can reasonably see - neither section 21 or 8 will help you at this time unless you default on your mortgage in which section 8 ground 2 may be used, and then only if you informed your tenants before the AST was signed that this may happen.

Sorry

TB 104

Twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-02 14:59:02 Sorry: As far as I can tell NO - but take proper legal advice. If you are member of a Landlord Association then this advice would be free!

TB 105

Aunty_P wrote this on 2010-02-02 15:34:49 Hi Mary, my understanding is that if your contract is an AST for a 6 month fixed term then you can issue a S21b dated to expire on the last day of the fixed term providing you give at least two months notice - unless your AST says something different.

But as you have an agent and are paying them good money take this query to them and see what they say. If you are in doubt then as TB says you should get proper legal advice.

People generally try to be helpful on forums but it is easy to miss a change in legal process unless we're subscribing to an Industry magazine etc. Private LLs who don't use a letting agent are well advised to join something like the RLA which gives pretty good value for money when queries like this come up. Letting your property is like any other money making business - there is always an element of risk. A good businessman/woman will do all they can to mimimise risk but it doesn't come free.
ATB 106

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-02 15:44:32 Mary, Providing the break clause is set out right in the agreement you may serve your Tenants with A section 21 notice, however please be aware that the Tenants are entitled to refuse to leave until their fixed term has expired. If they do refuse and you really need to regain possession you may serve them with a section 8 notice under the Specified grounds for possession there are 17 grounds and the most likely one for you would be ground 1, but only on the assumption that you used to live at the property yourself. Unfortunatly this has to be put in writing before the tenancy commenced.

The best senario for you to let the Agents talk to your Tenants for you to get a feel for things. If you really need the property back sooner than the fixed term and your Tenants are willing you could offer to help find them alternative accomodation and offer them any moving fees they incur.

Also Mary another option for you if your Tenants do not want to move before the fixed term expires, you could still put the property on the Market with the Tenants still there of course you will need a HIP before you could market the property. In the current market the house could still take a few months to sell and a further 12 weeks ish to complete. around 6 months ish in total. I advice my Landlords when they want to sell to go down this route as this way the Tenants have lots of notice and as an Agent I do my best to find them suitable property in time. The Agent you chose to sell through would still have to give the Tenants the required notice to enter the property to carry out any veiwings and most Tenants do like to be present as expected really it is their still home. As long as the Agents are considerate to the Tenants this option works very well and your still getting your rent paid. The Agent must keep on top on the convayancing side aswell so they can give the Tenants the proper notice. 107

Dominic Jenkinson wrote this on 2010-02-02 16:48:23 Thanks for the advice guys! Just to clarify for a section 21... the contract started on the 3rd... what date should I put on the notice? I think 2nd.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the forum. 108

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-02 18:43:10 Dominic, The period of a tenancy depends on how often the rent is paid. If the fixed term expires on the 3rd then the period of the tenancy begins at middnight on the 4th,(in other words a new periodic agreement has started for another month) so provided rent was paid monthly the last day of each period of tenancy would be the 3rd of each month. Therefore the Section 21 notice would have to expire at midnight on the 3rd of a month and be served a minimum of two months before the third of that month. I know there has been some confusion in past posts regarding the day before in your case the 2nd. Please note that the Section 21 Notice will be deemed invalid if the date is not the 3rd.


Read more: http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/section-21-notice-to-quit.htm#ixzz0eOyQCein
if your rent on the agreement is due on the 3rd then your notice has to be dated on the 3rd 109

KK121 wrote this on 2010-02-02 19:13:32 Dominic,Just for the record, You need to serve notice def on the 3rd( not 2nd ) as Lisa said this would be invalid if it was to be dated on the 2nd. I have been reading the other posts and have to agree with Lisa she seems to be update with the present legislations with regards to lettings. Good Luck 110

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-02 21:45:12 Lisa & Dominic

Well I am absolutley baffled at Lisa's stance on this S21 expiry date business.

Domininc clearly states his tenancy is periodic. (Post 76 above)
He also states it started on the 3rd day of the month. (Post 110 above) Assuming it is an AST and the rent is paid monthly not weekly, then the expiry date should be the 2nd of the month and be served with at least two clear months notice.

The link used as a reference by Lisa and KK121 clearly shows how to work out the expiry date correctly so both of them seem to have misinterpreted it.

At the top of this page is another link that would also conflict with thier advice. http://www.riky.co.uk/page/484/Expiry-date-of-Section-21.htm

The same advice can be found on numerous sites and plenty of manuals.

That's my final word, I'm going to enjoy the rest of my evening. 111

KK121 wrote this on 2010-02-02 22:47:04 First of all this will be my last post on here as i think it's to confusing the conflicting information that a couple of people are putting on here and they obviously have no experience in this subject and just read of websites that offer a small amount of information then ask for a fee. A-p and T-B go back and check your own posts before commenting on Lisa's spelling errors. This just goes to show you think your know it alls and your posts are inconsistent, you clearly have very little knowledge in this subject so stop advising people. Lisa YOU do know your stuff and my advice for anyone reading these posts would be wise to consider what Lisa has to say and then consult with us at your Local Citizens Advice Bureau. p.s T-B have you considered nothing came of the matter regarding your Friend because maybe just maybe they were in the wrong. I can assure anyone that these Bodies take complaints very seriously and you can only join after very challenging exams. 112

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-02 23:22:56 KK121, I haven't commented on anyones spelling? And I think TB made the comment not 'cos he is so proud of his own spelling but 'cos Lisa was bragging about her qualifications which are slightly at odds with her use written of english.

Fact, Lisa has got some stuff wrong and if she is a member of ARLA she should resit her exams which BTW, don't require a 92% pass rate as she quoted. I think this forum is for LLs and the like to have a moan and a laugh about lettings in general and meant to be friendly so there is no need for you to get all uppity. Methinks you might actually be Lisa under a different name.

We all make mistakes occasionally and Lisa has made some on this posting. It's not the end of the world, no one is going to die. I'm not a know it all and I have nothing to prove but I do know about serving a S21 on a periodic AST and I don't spout a load of boring advice to questions that haven't been asked. (Post 109 for example) That's a good example of know it all behavior.

The rest of your comments are so stupid they don't even warrant an answer so I won't bother. 113

The Landlord wrote this on 2010-02-02 23:30:53 Hey guys,

I've not read everything that has been discussed, but this is my take on the issue:

1) The landlord must serve the section 21 notice, not the agent, regardless of whether you are paying them for a full-management service.

2) a section 21 can be served any time after the commencement of the tenancy.

3) a section 21 can be served on the last day of the tenancy, however, the tenant would then be entitled to stay a further two months.

4) Serving a section s.21(1)(b) notice - needs to be served 2 months from the date the notice is served after which possession can be sought.

Serving a section s.21(4)(a) (Periodic) - this notice must specify a date which is the last day of a tenancy period giving a clear 2 months notice to this date. In practice this usually means the tenant gets more than 2 month’s notice.

EG: 6 month AST tenancy starts 5th June 2006. Agreement is signed on the 5th of the month (Calendar months) therefore the last day of each tenancy period is the 4th of each month.

The fixed term of this tenancy would end on the 4th of December 2006, after which day possession could be sought if the s.21(1)(b) was correctly served during the fixed term.

However, the tenant still being in occupation at the time of this writing (15 August 2007) a s.21(4)(a) (Periodic) is required.

The next tenancy period end date is therefore the 4th of September 2007. Two months notice from that date would be the 4th of November 2007. Therefore, for example, a notice served today would need to specify the 4th of November as the notice date, after which possession will be sought.

August 2007 - 4th / 5th (15th - notice served)

September 2007 - 4th / 5th

October 2007 - 4th / 5th

November 2007 - 4th notice day 114

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-02 23:42:57 Thanks Landlord, clear as day and very diplomatic! 115

twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-03 09:12:12 @KK121: If you read my posts you will see that I actually said to take "proper legal advice". This area is hugely confusing and if people wish to use this forum as gospel then they do so at their own risk. If they wish to get advice which they wish to later rely on in court then they should either go to a proper solicitor or join a Landlord Association which hold the proper indemnities. This does of course mean getting their hands in their wallets which most professional landlords do as a matter of course.

My comments on Lisa's spelling were aimed at the fact that she had a law degree under her belt and membership of 3 professional bodies! Oh - and go back and check your spelling too!

Look - Auntie is right. This forum is for fun and for spouting off, but more and more people are coming on expecting the holy grail in landlord legals for free. It's not going to work. We give our advice and help free of charge but it is advice based on our own experience. Being a landlord is more than just sitting back pissing off tenants and watching the money come rolling in. It's about being professional, joining a landlord association and where necessary paying for the correct advice. Too many accidental landlords or people who see property as a get rich quick scheme fail to see the importance of being professional and expect everything gratis.

Hey Landlord - perhaps you should engage the services of a lawyer who can charge for advice via the site - could be a good income stream?

TB

PS - I too remain baffled by Lisa's interpretations but now i am beyond caring.

Fancy a virtual cup of tea Auntie?? I'll supply the virtual hobnobs - chocolate of course! 116

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-03 09:18:26 Hi TB, I'd love a cup of tea! All that left me feeling quite drained. Leave out the nobs tho' I've had enough of them! I'll bring my home made brownies instead :-) 117

The Landlord wrote this on 2010-02-03 09:35:12 Just so you guys know, Lisa and KK121 is the same person :)

BOOOM, bet you guys didn't see that one coming! It's like Eastenders up in 'ere!

xx 118

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-03 09:53:51 Or a pantomime. Oh yes I did! (Post 113) 119

twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-03 09:56:16 Tee Hee!!

Not sure about Eastenders - more like Emmerdale!

Just goes to show that intelligence and commonsense are not always in the same gene pool!

I do a rather good banana and walnut loaf and I'm just about to go make some Landlord sized Cornish pasties a la Hairy Bikers!!

Smell the vurtual baking yet?

TB 120

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-03 11:59:38 So if two people are on the same wavelengh that means they are the same person. Oh i notice KK works for a company that give advice for free, maybe you should call them before getting on sites like this. You have lost sight of what this forum is for and when your proven wrong you find it easyier to throw insults rather than admit your wrong. Anyone who is prepard to state on here "i'm a 100% right" is leaving themselfs open unless you put a disclaimer next to it.

I DONT THINK PEOPLE WHO ASK FOR HELP ON HERE ARE LOOKING FOR A BIT OF FUN.

We get paid for our advice huneys. And just for the record I am a private Landlord with a portfolio of my own and in the process of Section 21 on two of them, both dss. If i am wrong so is the Judge. One of the Tenants has just been given 4 weeks to leave.

Heres a senario for you.

A Tenants signs a 6 month ASTA at 3pm on the 3rd of July 2009 the term expires on the 3rd of Jan 2010 at 3pm. You serve them a section 21 notice two the months with the date 2nd March.(the day before like you guys are advising) The Tenants are happy to leave but as the section 21 states the 2nd of march, they want the extra days rent back because legally they signed at
3pm on the 3rd so legally they have until 3pm on the 3rd. 121

The Landlord wrote this on 2010-02-03 12:13:18 You're the same person because you have the same IP address (i.e. posting from the same computer/house/building). Just so you know, I'm the Admin of this site, so I see all :)

Anyways, it's no big deal.

This site is about networking and helping one another, which all of you are trying to do, which I appreciate (regardless of conflicting opinions).

Kind regards 122

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-03 12:18:50 I would also like to add,im not perfect either I have made plenty of mistakes in the past that has cost me thousands. Its a very expensive lesson learnt but you do learn not to make mistakes again. 123

twattybollocks wrote this on 2010-02-03 12:25:12 Lisa,

The Landlord knows exactly who KK121 is as he is the site owner and has the sign up information! Where does it say that KK works for a company that gives advice for free?????

Who gets paid for their advice "huney"? I don't, and that is my whole point. If you are a landlord who takes the rent but is not prepared to put their hand in their pocket to get ratified legal advice as pert of their business then frankly you should not be a landlord1 OK everyone wants to get something for nothing - even me BUT, as I have stated before, if the landlord (or tenant) wants advice to take into court and then rely on the information given, they need to go to a bone fide solicitor or other housing professional who has the indemnities in place to protect against a charge of professional misconduct.

Anyone can join these forums, including you Lisa, but like everyone else, we do not know who you are. You SAY you have a legal degree and 3 professional affiliations - but no one here can verify that! You say judges are not wrong. Well what is the appeal court for? OK - not all judges get it wrong but some do. The Magistrate who is more likely to oversee the case is normally not legally trained and comes from the community. Everyone is fallible. If I am wrong I am man enough to admit it but only, ONLY when I am proved wrong by someone who's bone fides I can verify.

This forum is doing EXACTLY what it should be doing - encouraging debate amongst Landlords and Tenants - not everyone is going to be impressed with what is said but if you can't take critisism then perhaps you should not visit again?

TB 124

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-03 13:28:15 Thats good then he will also know she/he are not the same person. The IP address is the same for everyone in our building? Intresting though. 125

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-03 14:37:01 We give hard copies of the Goverments guidelines to our clients. You can request copies free of charge from them in the post. I dont think you have to be a Landlord or Tenant but please dont quote me on that. Their website is as followhats.

www.communities.gov.uk
6.2 What does the landlord have to do if he or she wants me to leave when the fixed term of a shorthold tenancy has ended?
The landlord must give you at least 2 months’ notice that he or she requires possession. The landlord can give you notice at any time during the fixed term, but the date he or she states possession is required CANNOT be before the end of the fixed term. If the tenancy is on a contractual period or statutory periodic basis, the date on which the notice expires must be the LAST (please note not the day before)day of a tenancy period,
and the notice must state that possession is required under Section 21 of the Housing Act 1988.
Hope you find this usefull. 126

su99£ wrote this on 2010-02-03 14:38:00 thanks for sharing it thats a wonderful thing, but can someone help me out about the dates in section 21.. if i get it signed by the tenant initially at the time to give the possession of the house... do i still need to serve it before two months? if i need to take possession of the house or i can give it to tenant in the beginning? a bit confused///// 127

Aunty P wrote this on 2010-02-03 15:12:55 Yawn, yawn, yawn, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... 128

alphagret321 wrote this on 2010-02-08 13:13:59 Hi all, just a quick query. Notice has been served to my Tenants using Section 21 (b) 6 months into the Tenancy. They should be out end of March 2010. Can I put the property up for sale despite end of March not here yet? thanks very much 129

christian wrote this on 2010-02-16 14:36:37 Hello All,

I am renting out a room in my own house (I live there too) to someone that I know quite well and therefore decided not to have a written contract. Things haven't been working out and I decided that I would rather live on my own. I told my friend in December that it would be better if she moved out by the end of February (I thought 2 months notice was reasonable). Now she says that she needs to stay a while longer because she has no job and it would be difficult for her to find another room elsewhere. I said she could stay another 10 days but she wants to stay longer.

What can I do? Do I have any rights to make her leave? Also, considering that she has consistently paid rent late...
Many thanks 130

Lisa wrote this on 2010-02-20 14:49:13 Alphagret321. Yes you can remeber to get a HIPS done first.

Christian, As long as none of you signed anything( if you did it would be classed as a resident Landlord agreement) If your agreement was verbal only then your Tenant is nothing more than a Lodger and has no legal rights to remain in your property if you have asked them to leave. You have already given a reasonable period of notice to leave therefore you have been very fair.

Your options
1, Change the locks and give them notice to collect their belongings.

2, You could call the police and inform them of the situation that you have asked them to leave and they still refuse and you want them out today, they will assist as it will be classed as trespassing.

Both options are drastic so be sure of your friendship before you go down this route.

Hope this helps. 131

Yolande wrote this on 2010-02-28 16:46:20 I and my Husband have been given a section 21 notice of 2months from our landlord The national trust, we we not informed of any issues, and had a dispute with a neibour over her blocking the drive, she then faulse called the police lied to them and droped the charges after our landlord was informed they then served us the notice before getting our side of the story, all these allegaions are faulse, and she just has it in for us, what can we do as our rural agent is not returning our calls and is being very unprofesional he has lied to us and wont give us any help at all. 132