Be Careful Of Property Associations
11 Jul 2007Someone posted this in my forum and I found it rather interesting, so I thought I would write about it since there’s a lesson to be learned.
I became a member of the Property Association in June 05 at a cost of £1600 plus VAT. The Property Association make deals with house builders and sell the off plan flat/houses to their members. They do various deals around the country and overseas. Their usual trick is to tell their members via very convincing emails about various developments, and leading people to believe that there is an instant equity. I was foolish enough to believe them and purchased an off plan 2 bedroom flat near Newcastle, in June 05, to be completed in July 06. There was 12 flats for sale and all were bought by members.
The initial info from them was also mentioning that a similar flat had sold in the area for £134,000, so I thought we were getting a very good deal with our purchase! Because there was no Post Codes I could not research anything on the Internet. We were also told that the flat was 4 miles from Newcastle and in a regeneration area.
When I made my 1st trip there shortly before completion, I had a shock. The flat was nearly 8 miles from Newcastle, not 4, and in a dump and depressing area.
Our flat has now been on the market since completion, and is now on the market for less than the purchase price!!! Furthermore, in order to purchase through the Property Association, there is also a ‘finders’ fee of 2%. All in all, we paid nearly £5000.00 in fees to purchase a flat that is not worth today the price we paid 2 years ago!
**SOME CONTENT REMOVED**
(If there are any TPA Members who have purchased a property through TPA, I would be glad to hear their views)”
My sympathy goes out to Dan, the guy who wrote that. But there’s plenty to be learned from this unlucky experience.
I’ve noticed a lot of those property association companies merge from under the woodworks over the years and I can safely say that they’ve never appealed to me. Not because I thought they were a dodgy outfit (although I do now), but more because I wanted to have a more in-depth involvement with property myself, as opposed to getting someone else to do the work for me for a shit load of money. What these property association companies basically do is approach developers, and strike up an agreement. They usually say, “we’ll sell 20 apartments for you, if you give us a discount on each flat”.
If you plan on going down the route of using a property association, just be careful, especially with off-plan proposals, as you never know what you might end up with. And don’t be fooled by the “instant equity” bullshit; equity can NEVER be guaranteed. If they’re so positive of instant positive equity guarantee, tell them to put it in the contract. I’d like to hear their responses to that…The fact is, you can’t actually value a property accurately until it’s been built.
I don’t mean to name and shame, but here”s an example of a property association company here
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Talk / 54 Comments left so far
The Landlord wrote this on 2007-11-28 09:24:47
Hey Geoff,
Sorry to hear about your experience. Sounds awful.
I think the important message is that you can't really value a property until it's been built, so equity can't be gaurenteed.
I hope things work out for the best.
Kind regards.
Sorry to hear about your experience. Sounds awful.
I think the important message is that you can't really value a property until it's been built, so equity can't be gaurenteed.
I hope things work out for the best.
Kind regards.
2
Phil wrote this on 2008-12-23 12:39:23
This company is run by a guy that has previously been the UK representative of a gold coin pyramid scam that was banned by the DTI. He also ran a company that was prosecuted by Hampshire police for fraudulent trading. He was also previously a representative of a MLM water filter company that famously went bust.
Seems that property investment attracts these type of people.
Seems that property investment attracts these type of people.
3
Mark Sawyer wrote this on 2009-01-05 15:29:39
I have been aware of this site for some time, but as they say, all publicity is good publicity and reference to my company only improves our internet search rankings. No business worth its salt can ever avoid the occasional bad press. It’s simply a by-product of consistent success and as they say, 'you can’t please all of the people all of the time'. However, I was alerted to the specific and personal defamatory comments on this page and therefore, as managing director of the company referred to, I think it entirely appropriate to add my own comment.
It is easy to make defamatory comments based upon the hearsay and gossip of a few random individuals, but who on earth is this mysterious guy called Phil? I wonder if he knows the consequences of slander. He seems to hate me for some reason. Ah well, he’s probably a failed competitor or just a jealous businessman and I suppose you can’t run a successful business without someone having the occasional pop at you. I just wish people would get their facts right first. Where does he get his career resume skills from? He makes it sound like I have some criminal record. What's this runbbish about being guilty of fraudulent trading? The worst I have ever had are three points on my driving license and the odd parking ticket.
I have a solid business record, an impeccable credit rating and although I didn’t ask to be included, I’m even in the 2009 edition of Who’s Who. I must have got something right it would seem. Oh and yes, I put my money where my mouth is and I too have suffered from the downturn in both the property market and other arenas. Entrepreneurs are not afraid to lose; in fact they expect to fail in the process of succeeding. All those unhappy whingers out there will be pleased to know that my net worth has also fallen in the last 12 months too, the same as everyone else’s. The difference is that you won’t find me blaming other people or writing defamatory rubbish on tittle-tattle, tell-tale web sites?
Nobody has escaped this worldwide asset crash except those who never tried to achieve anything with their lives. Every UK property and most of those abroad have fallen in value. So have stocks and shares, so have commodities and so have funds. Let’s get real here. Nobody is trying to con you (even the banks). The fact is that assets can increase in value as well as decrease. If you can find the magic formula to avoid that fact, please let me know. It’s almost as certain as death and taxes.
If you want to get on in life you have to look in the mirror, take personal responsibility and stop accusing others of malpractice. If you buy off plan, then you have the possibility of the market moving for you or against you. I’m sure your editor will allow my bluntness when I say this: Life is not a bed of roses and shit happens, so get used to it.
Some people dedicate their time to throwing blame for their decisions, whilst others accept responsibility and concentrate their efforts on moving forward and being positive. Even the editor of this site makes no hesitation in expressing his own opinion of such people: I quote from his ‘About Me’ page:
“Most of the people complaining are either old and bitter or just irresponsible for making the wrong decisions.”
Those are not my words but the words of your blogging landlord and the owner of this website. Despite the fact that he gets hits by being disparaging, even he in his infinite wisdom and polite rhetoric, recognises that you need to see both sides of the equation. I’m happy for him to maintain this page as long as he includes my reply to unfair attack. Let me explain further…
Nobody can force anyone into buying a property for goodness sake. It’s a long process involving numerous people and you can’t scam people if respectable solicitors, surveyors and financiers are involved in the purchase process. It’s nonsense to suggest that The Property Association is anything other than a broker of opportunities. All we do is put a buyer in touch with a seller. We don’t sell our own product and therefore we cannot and do not guarantee anything and equally, we have never done so. The term ‘Instant Equity’ is not the ‘bullshit’ you editor suggests, but he is quite right in saying it cannot be guaranteed. The editor of this site would have been well advised to research the subject before blasting us for something we have never promised.
As the unnamed editor of this site also points out: “I’m in property investment for the long term, not short-term. I’m using property as a means to secure my future. A crash will only hinder the short-term investor.” TPA has always promoted the same philosophy and our web site still promotes caution and due diligence. Check it out for yourself here: http://www.thepropertyassociation.com/strategy.aspx where I say this (written in June 2005):
“We can help you source some excellent bargains, but my advice is always to make sure you view property as a serious business and not a 'get rich quick' solution. Property has made more millionaires than any other industry but it is not a 'walk in the park'. Do your homework and due diligence before you make any financial commitments you may later regret.
Please also note that I am giving you my full name, I do show my photograph on the above link and our web site also gives our physical address and telephone number. Unlike your editor, I have no reason to hide my identity and I have nothing to hide.
For the record, The Property Association is almost six years old and we have over 1,500 customers, some of whom have purchased multiple properties through us. We introduced them to the developer and they are given ample opportunity to make an informed decision before proceeding with a purchase using their own solicitor if desired. Mortgages are arranged with leading banks and valuations are conducted by RICS valuers. If the odd individual chooses to do their own thing and attempt to hide discounts from lenders in order to raise excess borrowing and then ‘flip’ the unit to make a quick profit, then we cannot police such activities. On the other hand, most of our clients show a long term commitment and are practical about market fluctuations.
One of our best clients has made 26 separate purchases of individual properties through TPA over a four year period and he is a highly successful dental surgeon. Ironically, he was also once a representative of the same MLM company mentioned by the mysterious Phil. Is Phil suggesting that all 10,000 of the former UK representatives of NSA are similarly tarnished by their prior involvement with an MLM company? Is he also suggesting that anyone who fell foul of DTI legislation set in the late 90’s regarding MLM operations should be banned from running another business? How ridiculous. Hundreds of top entrepreneurs have an MLM background. It is one of the best business trainings you will ever enjoy.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that I am still in business, whereas the DTI is not. So maybe Phil should keep up with changes.
TPA has some 20,000 free members and the best way to establish the credibility of any company is to approach them directly and request a meeting. If anyone reading this would like to visit our offices, then please do not hesitate to make an appointment. We are a family business and although we don’t pay for the financial mistakes of the occasional ‘get rich quick’ punter who slips through the net, we do care about our customers and we have an excellent relationship with the vast majority of our clients.
It is easy to make defamatory comments based upon the hearsay and gossip of a few random individuals, but who on earth is this mysterious guy called Phil? I wonder if he knows the consequences of slander. He seems to hate me for some reason. Ah well, he’s probably a failed competitor or just a jealous businessman and I suppose you can’t run a successful business without someone having the occasional pop at you. I just wish people would get their facts right first. Where does he get his career resume skills from? He makes it sound like I have some criminal record. What's this runbbish about being guilty of fraudulent trading? The worst I have ever had are three points on my driving license and the odd parking ticket.
I have a solid business record, an impeccable credit rating and although I didn’t ask to be included, I’m even in the 2009 edition of Who’s Who. I must have got something right it would seem. Oh and yes, I put my money where my mouth is and I too have suffered from the downturn in both the property market and other arenas. Entrepreneurs are not afraid to lose; in fact they expect to fail in the process of succeeding. All those unhappy whingers out there will be pleased to know that my net worth has also fallen in the last 12 months too, the same as everyone else’s. The difference is that you won’t find me blaming other people or writing defamatory rubbish on tittle-tattle, tell-tale web sites?
Nobody has escaped this worldwide asset crash except those who never tried to achieve anything with their lives. Every UK property and most of those abroad have fallen in value. So have stocks and shares, so have commodities and so have funds. Let’s get real here. Nobody is trying to con you (even the banks). The fact is that assets can increase in value as well as decrease. If you can find the magic formula to avoid that fact, please let me know. It’s almost as certain as death and taxes.
If you want to get on in life you have to look in the mirror, take personal responsibility and stop accusing others of malpractice. If you buy off plan, then you have the possibility of the market moving for you or against you. I’m sure your editor will allow my bluntness when I say this: Life is not a bed of roses and shit happens, so get used to it.
Some people dedicate their time to throwing blame for their decisions, whilst others accept responsibility and concentrate their efforts on moving forward and being positive. Even the editor of this site makes no hesitation in expressing his own opinion of such people: I quote from his ‘About Me’ page:
“Most of the people complaining are either old and bitter or just irresponsible for making the wrong decisions.”
Those are not my words but the words of your blogging landlord and the owner of this website. Despite the fact that he gets hits by being disparaging, even he in his infinite wisdom and polite rhetoric, recognises that you need to see both sides of the equation. I’m happy for him to maintain this page as long as he includes my reply to unfair attack. Let me explain further…
Nobody can force anyone into buying a property for goodness sake. It’s a long process involving numerous people and you can’t scam people if respectable solicitors, surveyors and financiers are involved in the purchase process. It’s nonsense to suggest that The Property Association is anything other than a broker of opportunities. All we do is put a buyer in touch with a seller. We don’t sell our own product and therefore we cannot and do not guarantee anything and equally, we have never done so. The term ‘Instant Equity’ is not the ‘bullshit’ you editor suggests, but he is quite right in saying it cannot be guaranteed. The editor of this site would have been well advised to research the subject before blasting us for something we have never promised.
As the unnamed editor of this site also points out: “I’m in property investment for the long term, not short-term. I’m using property as a means to secure my future. A crash will only hinder the short-term investor.” TPA has always promoted the same philosophy and our web site still promotes caution and due diligence. Check it out for yourself here: http://www.thepropertyassociation.com/strategy.aspx where I say this (written in June 2005):
“We can help you source some excellent bargains, but my advice is always to make sure you view property as a serious business and not a 'get rich quick' solution. Property has made more millionaires than any other industry but it is not a 'walk in the park'. Do your homework and due diligence before you make any financial commitments you may later regret.
Please also note that I am giving you my full name, I do show my photograph on the above link and our web site also gives our physical address and telephone number. Unlike your editor, I have no reason to hide my identity and I have nothing to hide.
For the record, The Property Association is almost six years old and we have over 1,500 customers, some of whom have purchased multiple properties through us. We introduced them to the developer and they are given ample opportunity to make an informed decision before proceeding with a purchase using their own solicitor if desired. Mortgages are arranged with leading banks and valuations are conducted by RICS valuers. If the odd individual chooses to do their own thing and attempt to hide discounts from lenders in order to raise excess borrowing and then ‘flip’ the unit to make a quick profit, then we cannot police such activities. On the other hand, most of our clients show a long term commitment and are practical about market fluctuations.
One of our best clients has made 26 separate purchases of individual properties through TPA over a four year period and he is a highly successful dental surgeon. Ironically, he was also once a representative of the same MLM company mentioned by the mysterious Phil. Is Phil suggesting that all 10,000 of the former UK representatives of NSA are similarly tarnished by their prior involvement with an MLM company? Is he also suggesting that anyone who fell foul of DTI legislation set in the late 90’s regarding MLM operations should be banned from running another business? How ridiculous. Hundreds of top entrepreneurs have an MLM background. It is one of the best business trainings you will ever enjoy.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that I am still in business, whereas the DTI is not. So maybe Phil should keep up with changes.
TPA has some 20,000 free members and the best way to establish the credibility of any company is to approach them directly and request a meeting. If anyone reading this would like to visit our offices, then please do not hesitate to make an appointment. We are a family business and although we don’t pay for the financial mistakes of the occasional ‘get rich quick’ punter who slips through the net, we do care about our customers and we have an excellent relationship with the vast majority of our clients.
4
alan ferierra wrote this on 2009-02-19 15:57:59
I don’t think Phil hates you. If you’re asking does he know the consequences of slander, then you must think that what he has written is untrue.
Were you a u.k. representative of a gold coin pyramid scam was shut down by the dti? (By the way, the issue isn’t whether the dti still exists, it’s whether they shut you down or not, so please don’t try and deflect the issue! also Did you have a company that was investigated by Hampshire police (oh, and by the way, i don’t believe anyone accused you of being guilty), you must read things properly before you reply! Otherwise one can look foolish. I look forward to your reply.
Were you a u.k. representative of a gold coin pyramid scam was shut down by the dti? (By the way, the issue isn’t whether the dti still exists, it’s whether they shut you down or not, so please don’t try and deflect the issue! also Did you have a company that was investigated by Hampshire police (oh, and by the way, i don’t believe anyone accused you of being guilty), you must read things properly before you reply! Otherwise one can look foolish. I look forward to your reply.
5
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-07 10:53:26
A copy of the letter sent by Mr Sawyer to the DTI in defence of Vanilla Services BV, the gold pyramid scheme that was subsequently banned in the UK.
As you will note, Mr Sawyer is very annoyed by the DTI's actions
"I am now taking legal advice as to seeking recompense for your inappropriate behaviour and as a result of this action I am also copying this letter to the press and to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry"
You will also note that the letter is in the public domain, it was copied to all UK newspapers.
*** ADDRESS REMOVED ***
Dear Sir, PROPOSED INTERVIEW RE. VANILLA GROUP
I am in receipt of your letter of 21 May 1997, Ref. A/GCC/DRG/3.3
All possible information has been willingly provided by myself on three separate occasions.
Mr. Harding from the DTI has interviewed me twice. Once in his own office and once at my home. our own subordinates have subsequently conducted an interview with me on Tuesday 20 May 1997 at my home address.
At the time of writing this letter (9.00am Saturday 24 May 1997), I am informed that no court order for the provisional winding up of the four companies you refer to, has yet been served on any of these companies at their place of business. I would therefore be grateful if you would clarify why this is the case, as the court order was to be served at their place of business on or before the close of business on 22 May 1997. Have you applied to the court for an extension to this deadline ?
From conversations with your officers, it is clear that their understanding of the Vanilla programme is based entirely upon a report compiled by Mr. Harding of the DTI. Are you happy with this report? Presumably, Mr. Harding's affidavit was sufficient to achieve a court order. If you still require information, am I now to assume that Mr. Harding's report is being reviewed for it's lack of material content and does it perhaps contain substantial misunderstandings, omissions or misinterpretations? I certainly felt a distinct lack in knowledge of this case on the part of your visiting officers, Mr. Gibson and Mr. Campbell. Mr. Gibson referred to a programme operated by a liquidated company called 'Future Trading Corporation' and he suggested that the Vanilla Programme was identical. This is simply not the case. His research is severely flawed.
The DTI press release statement that: 'members....receive benefits ('gold coins') from the company, the level of which depends for the most part upon the number of participants in their 'downline', is nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of this programme. It is entirely irrelevant how many people are in your 'downline', our job is primarily frontline, in other words, a traditional sales business. Mr. Harding has missed the point. Vanilla's Gold Program does not compensate people on 'generations' or 'levels' of people. Each Purchase Agreement needs to be concluded separately. A fixed return from a fixed investment, involving a fixed amount of work. I believe that this is much like any other business.
I also have evidence that some outside influence has been brought to bare upon the DTI during it's 'investigation' into Vanilla. A certain member of the public who by strange coincidence has just set up a 'copy cat' programme in competition with Vanilla, has for some time been promoting the fact that he has 'inside information' from the DTI that Vanilla was going to be wound up. If it turns out that a DTI officer has been leaking information and is in collusion with this individual, perhaps in placing or receiving bogus complaints from the 'general public' then this is very serious indeed. I
cont........................
2.
have never heard a complaint from any Vanilla Representative about the programme and I think it a little strange that, when I directly asked Mr. Harding if any complaints had been made to the DTI, he said 'NO'. You will find this statement on the scenographer's transcript of the meeting held in the DTI offices. I sincerely hope that Mr. Harding has had no personal discussions or involvement with this individual who I hear claims that he has 'DTI approval for his scheme'. No doubt we will find out from the 'evidence' presented and I trust that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will take an active interest in such a possibility, whoever is responsible.
As stated to your officers and as previously understood by them, I am not a director or an official of any of the four companies mentioned in your letter. I am simply an independent representative of Vanilla BV. This representative's role provides me with no corporate responsibilities or rights to represent the company in any capacity other than as an independent distributor of gold coins. Furthermore I am Managing Director of another business based in Manchester with eight employees including my wife and my son. This is my full time job. Vanilla is a secondary business and represents a possible supplement to my income. This does not however mean that I do not support the movement of people within the Vanilla Group and please do not assume that you have my support in your unfounded action against them. I will of course cooperate with you as a UK citizen and under the court order but I will not support you in destroying something which is fulfilling so many people's lives in a way which you could not possibly understand. Vanilla is a movement, not just a business. Vanilla is a forum of free thinking people. Imagine destroying something which has just brought relief from suffering to an orphanage full of dying children in Bulgaria. Have you been presented with our video on this subject as part of the DTI 'evidence'?
At this point and for the above reasons, I would like to express my disgust that the DTI has not only named me in a press release P/97/338 21 May 1997 but you have also quoted my personal address. This is not only irresponsible, potentially dangerous for my wife and children but it is also defamation of character. Not because of being associated with a remarkable organisation such as Vanilla for which I am proud, but because you have arbitrarily suggested that Vanilla is an 'illegal lottery' and that I am solely responsible for it's UK existence. I have no appointment as 'principle organiser' for Vanilla Services BV. If you care to review the information willingly provided to you, you will find that my 'downline' is principally made up of the 'downlines' of a few other people. There are also other lines of people in the UK whose sponsorship originates abroad. We all work together in cooperation and unity. Perhaps this is an unusual concept for you to grasp. It is clear to all Vanilla Representatives that you are therefore victimising me through the press for showing an interest in the success of other people, some of whom are in no way connected with my 'downline'? I am now taking legal advice as to seeking recompense for your inappropriate behaviour and as a result of this action I am also copying this letter to the press and to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.
I expect by now you will have read the Saturday Daily Mail and will be aware that Mr. Daniel Ch. Deubelbeiss of Vanilla is going to fight this case through the English courts. Albeit that your plundering and pillaging has commenced, perhaps this would be a good time to review your facts and the evident inadequacies of Mr. Harding's report. To assist in this I will be happy to make myself available in London on Thursday 29th May at 11.00am in your office. If however you intend to interrogate me with a view to intimidation then I would suggest that you cancel the appointment and seek your answers from an officer of Vanilla Services BV. in The Netherlands where you have been expected since last Tuesday.
Your written reply is respectfully requested before the proposed appointment.
Yours faithfully,
Mark Sawyer. cc. All major UK newspapers & Secretary of State for Trade & Indusrty
As you will note, Mr Sawyer is very annoyed by the DTI's actions
"I am now taking legal advice as to seeking recompense for your inappropriate behaviour and as a result of this action I am also copying this letter to the press and to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry"
You will also note that the letter is in the public domain, it was copied to all UK newspapers.
*** ADDRESS REMOVED ***
Dear Sir, PROPOSED INTERVIEW RE. VANILLA GROUP
I am in receipt of your letter of 21 May 1997, Ref. A/GCC/DRG/3.3
All possible information has been willingly provided by myself on three separate occasions.
Mr. Harding from the DTI has interviewed me twice. Once in his own office and once at my home. our own subordinates have subsequently conducted an interview with me on Tuesday 20 May 1997 at my home address.
At the time of writing this letter (9.00am Saturday 24 May 1997), I am informed that no court order for the provisional winding up of the four companies you refer to, has yet been served on any of these companies at their place of business. I would therefore be grateful if you would clarify why this is the case, as the court order was to be served at their place of business on or before the close of business on 22 May 1997. Have you applied to the court for an extension to this deadline ?
From conversations with your officers, it is clear that their understanding of the Vanilla programme is based entirely upon a report compiled by Mr. Harding of the DTI. Are you happy with this report? Presumably, Mr. Harding's affidavit was sufficient to achieve a court order. If you still require information, am I now to assume that Mr. Harding's report is being reviewed for it's lack of material content and does it perhaps contain substantial misunderstandings, omissions or misinterpretations? I certainly felt a distinct lack in knowledge of this case on the part of your visiting officers, Mr. Gibson and Mr. Campbell. Mr. Gibson referred to a programme operated by a liquidated company called 'Future Trading Corporation' and he suggested that the Vanilla Programme was identical. This is simply not the case. His research is severely flawed.
The DTI press release statement that: 'members....receive benefits ('gold coins') from the company, the level of which depends for the most part upon the number of participants in their 'downline', is nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of this programme. It is entirely irrelevant how many people are in your 'downline', our job is primarily frontline, in other words, a traditional sales business. Mr. Harding has missed the point. Vanilla's Gold Program does not compensate people on 'generations' or 'levels' of people. Each Purchase Agreement needs to be concluded separately. A fixed return from a fixed investment, involving a fixed amount of work. I believe that this is much like any other business.
I also have evidence that some outside influence has been brought to bare upon the DTI during it's 'investigation' into Vanilla. A certain member of the public who by strange coincidence has just set up a 'copy cat' programme in competition with Vanilla, has for some time been promoting the fact that he has 'inside information' from the DTI that Vanilla was going to be wound up. If it turns out that a DTI officer has been leaking information and is in collusion with this individual, perhaps in placing or receiving bogus complaints from the 'general public' then this is very serious indeed. I
cont........................
2.
have never heard a complaint from any Vanilla Representative about the programme and I think it a little strange that, when I directly asked Mr. Harding if any complaints had been made to the DTI, he said 'NO'. You will find this statement on the scenographer's transcript of the meeting held in the DTI offices. I sincerely hope that Mr. Harding has had no personal discussions or involvement with this individual who I hear claims that he has 'DTI approval for his scheme'. No doubt we will find out from the 'evidence' presented and I trust that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will take an active interest in such a possibility, whoever is responsible.
As stated to your officers and as previously understood by them, I am not a director or an official of any of the four companies mentioned in your letter. I am simply an independent representative of Vanilla BV. This representative's role provides me with no corporate responsibilities or rights to represent the company in any capacity other than as an independent distributor of gold coins. Furthermore I am Managing Director of another business based in Manchester with eight employees including my wife and my son. This is my full time job. Vanilla is a secondary business and represents a possible supplement to my income. This does not however mean that I do not support the movement of people within the Vanilla Group and please do not assume that you have my support in your unfounded action against them. I will of course cooperate with you as a UK citizen and under the court order but I will not support you in destroying something which is fulfilling so many people's lives in a way which you could not possibly understand. Vanilla is a movement, not just a business. Vanilla is a forum of free thinking people. Imagine destroying something which has just brought relief from suffering to an orphanage full of dying children in Bulgaria. Have you been presented with our video on this subject as part of the DTI 'evidence'?
At this point and for the above reasons, I would like to express my disgust that the DTI has not only named me in a press release P/97/338 21 May 1997 but you have also quoted my personal address. This is not only irresponsible, potentially dangerous for my wife and children but it is also defamation of character. Not because of being associated with a remarkable organisation such as Vanilla for which I am proud, but because you have arbitrarily suggested that Vanilla is an 'illegal lottery' and that I am solely responsible for it's UK existence. I have no appointment as 'principle organiser' for Vanilla Services BV. If you care to review the information willingly provided to you, you will find that my 'downline' is principally made up of the 'downlines' of a few other people. There are also other lines of people in the UK whose sponsorship originates abroad. We all work together in cooperation and unity. Perhaps this is an unusual concept for you to grasp. It is clear to all Vanilla Representatives that you are therefore victimising me through the press for showing an interest in the success of other people, some of whom are in no way connected with my 'downline'? I am now taking legal advice as to seeking recompense for your inappropriate behaviour and as a result of this action I am also copying this letter to the press and to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.
I expect by now you will have read the Saturday Daily Mail and will be aware that Mr. Daniel Ch. Deubelbeiss of Vanilla is going to fight this case through the English courts. Albeit that your plundering and pillaging has commenced, perhaps this would be a good time to review your facts and the evident inadequacies of Mr. Harding's report. To assist in this I will be happy to make myself available in London on Thursday 29th May at 11.00am in your office. If however you intend to interrogate me with a view to intimidation then I would suggest that you cancel the appointment and seek your answers from an officer of Vanilla Services BV. in The Netherlands where you have been expected since last Tuesday.
Your written reply is respectfully requested before the proposed appointment.
Yours faithfully,
Mark Sawyer. cc. All major UK newspapers & Secretary of State for Trade & Indusrty
6
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-07 17:42:18
Re: Mark Sawyer and Vanilla Pyramid scheme banned in UK.
http://web.archive.org/web/19990429130356/www.coi.gov.uk/coi/depts/GTI/coi8933c.ok
DTI Press Release P/97/338 21 May 1997
DTI PETITION TO WIND UP VANILLA SERVICES B.V. AND APPOINTMENT OF
OFFICIAL RECEIVER
The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has presented a petition in the High Court to wind up, in the public interest, Vanilla Services B.V. following investigations under Section 447 of the Companies Act 1985 (as amended).
On the application of the Secretary of State the Court appointed the Official Receiver as provisional liquidator of Vanilla Services B.V. on 20 May 1997 pending the hearing of the petition on 25 June 1997 at
10.30am.
Vanilla's principal operation is the administration of a "Gold Accumulation Plan", a multi-level scheme where payments are made to members in the form of gold coins rather than cash. Vanilla, which operates from Holland, has recruited its membership from 16
countries, including the United Kingdom. Under the terms of this scheme, members pay between 80 and 3,000 Swiss Francs in order to participate and, as participants, receive benefits ("gold coins")
from the company, the level of which depends for the most part upon the number of participants they and others have in their "downline"recruit.
The role of the Official Receiver as provisional liquidator is to protect and preserve the assets and financial records of the company until the hearing of the winding up petition.
Notes to Editors
1. There is no registered office or trading address for the company in the United Kingdom. The main company running the scheme, Vanilla Services B.V. is at 120 Jupiterstraat, Pluspoint 2 Gebouw, 2132 HE
Hoofddorp. The principle United Kingdom organiser of the scheme, Mr Mark Sawyer, operates from his home address at 16, Highfield, Sale,Cheshire, M33 3DN.
2. The petition was presented under Section 124A of the Insolvency Act 1986.
3. All public enquiries concerning the companies should be made to:
The Official Receiver
21, Bloomsbury Street
LONDON
WC1B 3SS
ENDS
http://web.archive.org/web/19990429130356/www.coi.gov.uk/coi/depts/GTI/coi8933c.ok
DTI Press Release P/97/338 21 May 1997
DTI PETITION TO WIND UP VANILLA SERVICES B.V. AND APPOINTMENT OF
OFFICIAL RECEIVER
The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has presented a petition in the High Court to wind up, in the public interest, Vanilla Services B.V. following investigations under Section 447 of the Companies Act 1985 (as amended).
On the application of the Secretary of State the Court appointed the Official Receiver as provisional liquidator of Vanilla Services B.V. on 20 May 1997 pending the hearing of the petition on 25 June 1997 at
10.30am.
Vanilla's principal operation is the administration of a "Gold Accumulation Plan", a multi-level scheme where payments are made to members in the form of gold coins rather than cash. Vanilla, which operates from Holland, has recruited its membership from 16
countries, including the United Kingdom. Under the terms of this scheme, members pay between 80 and 3,000 Swiss Francs in order to participate and, as participants, receive benefits ("gold coins")
from the company, the level of which depends for the most part upon the number of participants they and others have in their "downline"recruit.
The role of the Official Receiver as provisional liquidator is to protect and preserve the assets and financial records of the company until the hearing of the winding up petition.
Notes to Editors
1. There is no registered office or trading address for the company in the United Kingdom. The main company running the scheme, Vanilla Services B.V. is at 120 Jupiterstraat, Pluspoint 2 Gebouw, 2132 HE
Hoofddorp. The principle United Kingdom organiser of the scheme, Mr Mark Sawyer, operates from his home address at 16, Highfield, Sale,Cheshire, M33 3DN.
2. The petition was presented under Section 124A of the Insolvency Act 1986.
3. All public enquiries concerning the companies should be made to:
The Official Receiver
21, Bloomsbury Street
LONDON
WC1B 3SS
ENDS
7
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-09 12:01:54
More unhappy clients, from www.blagger.com
I am interested in anyone who has bought a property through this comapny and especially a development called Lake Edge 551 in New Zealand. The development is turning out to be nothing like the one promised and The Property Association are distancing themselves from it. Their Terms & Conditions lack any form of professional integrity - i.e. if anythig goes wrong - tough -we will keep your money. If this has been your experience and you have had success in getting your money back I would be interested in your comments.
greg.tait at 24th Jul 2006, 02:27AM
I am interested in anyone who has bought a property through this comapny and especially a development called Lake Edge 551 in New Zealand. The development is turning out to be nothing like the one promised and The Property Association are distancing themselves from it. Their Terms & Conditions lack any form of professional integrity - i.e. if anythig goes wrong - tough -we will keep your money. If this has been your experience and you have had success in getting your money back I would be interested in your comments.
greg.tait at 24th Jul 2006, 02:27AM
8
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-09 12:02:33
More:
I tried to buy a flat in Moston thru this company. I submitted my £1000 deposit as per their instrutions to LegalCo Solicitors based in Manchester. This was over a year ago.
Recently, they have sent a letter saying that the monies are not forthcoming from Kevin Richardson of LegalCo. Effectively, he had allegedly passed them on to someone else as he was never told 'NOT TO' by Mark Sawyer's company: The Property Association.
We have now been told to chase the solicitor at LegalCo ourselves as we have more power to do so.
They keep emphasising to read the SMALLPRINT. This, effecitively says that they are not legally liable.
Beware companies like The Property association. They promise discounted properties. I bought one in Manchester: Castlefield...The price is lower now than when I bought at a 'discounted price!
Iam £1000 down through trying to buy a flat through this company.
My advice, go directly to the builder and negociate your own discount. avoid the cowboys!
kymasis at 8th Sep 2005, 11:44AM
I tried to buy a flat in Moston thru this company. I submitted my £1000 deposit as per their instrutions to LegalCo Solicitors based in Manchester. This was over a year ago.
Recently, they have sent a letter saying that the monies are not forthcoming from Kevin Richardson of LegalCo. Effectively, he had allegedly passed them on to someone else as he was never told 'NOT TO' by Mark Sawyer's company: The Property Association.
We have now been told to chase the solicitor at LegalCo ourselves as we have more power to do so.
They keep emphasising to read the SMALLPRINT. This, effecitively says that they are not legally liable.
Beware companies like The Property association. They promise discounted properties. I bought one in Manchester: Castlefield...The price is lower now than when I bought at a 'discounted price!
Iam £1000 down through trying to buy a flat through this company.
My advice, go directly to the builder and negociate your own discount. avoid the cowboys!
kymasis at 8th Sep 2005, 11:44AM
9
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-09 12:07:13
More !!
Property club. I have dealt with before and bought 2 properties.
However, I tired to buy one more. I sent £1000 deposit to a Lawyer called Kevin Richardson of LegalCo. They told me to send it to this Lawyer in order to secure my appartment.
The appartments didn't appear. The Legal Conveyancer decided to give the money to the vendor as he wasn't 'instructed to do otherwise'.
The money has disappeared and The Property Association is distancing themselves form the whole thing.
They have sold millions of pounds of property. I respected them. They must be millionaires.
Yet now they distance themselves from an obvious error of judgement.
The liitle people are supposed to sit and take it.
BUT THEY WON'T!
NOT ANY MORE!
I WON'T LET THIS DIE.
Look out for the Property Association.
They are so quick to distance themselves and leave us to fight for ourselves because we are only a small group.
We might be small but we are very vocal!!!
kymasis at 2nd Sep 2005, 09:46PM
Property club. I have dealt with before and bought 2 properties.
However, I tired to buy one more. I sent £1000 deposit to a Lawyer called Kevin Richardson of LegalCo. They told me to send it to this Lawyer in order to secure my appartment.
The appartments didn't appear. The Legal Conveyancer decided to give the money to the vendor as he wasn't 'instructed to do otherwise'.
The money has disappeared and The Property Association is distancing themselves form the whole thing.
They have sold millions of pounds of property. I respected them. They must be millionaires.
Yet now they distance themselves from an obvious error of judgement.
The liitle people are supposed to sit and take it.
BUT THEY WON'T!
NOT ANY MORE!
I WON'T LET THIS DIE.
Look out for the Property Association.
They are so quick to distance themselves and leave us to fight for ourselves because we are only a small group.
We might be small but we are very vocal!!!
kymasis at 2nd Sep 2005, 09:46PM
10
john palmer wrote this on 2009-03-10 11:51:55
*** COMMENT REMOVED ***
11
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-10 19:31:09
John
What a great resource the web is ! they are one and the same, and they also have another web presence:
www.thepropertysyndicate.com/
This offers
MAXIMUM GAIN MINIMUM RISK !!
UP TO 50% RETURN PER ANNUM !!
Last person I heard of offering this sort of return on investment was Bernard Madoff in The USA, and we all know where he is heading, and how safe your money would have been.
As the Financial Services Authority warns, if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.
A little like pyramid or Ponzi schemes.
There seems to be a pattern emerging here.
No further comment from Mr Sawyer about "slander" or defamation of character ?
I actually think that "The Property Syndicate" should be registered with the FSA, and that it is illegal to operate a "collective investment scheme" in the UK without doing so.
Mr Sawyer quotes some very legal sounding stuff about "qualified investors", which is of no relevance to the UK regulations, and doesn't exclude them in any way from their obligation to be registered.
Caution to Mr Sawyer, I do have some considerable expertise in this area. But bring on the debate, I'm enjoying it.
He was also suggesting recently at his TPA site that people should take out second and even third charges against their homes to invest in BTL.
Maybe not the best advice I have ever seen.
Looking at his main customers at Pushinternet, they seem to be a firm of debt councillors, Dawson White, Chiltern Debt Management etc (all owned by one company) based in the same building in Sale, Manchester as TPA are.
It looks like TPA could be a great source of customers for them !!
Phil
What a great resource the web is ! they are one and the same, and they also have another web presence:
www.thepropertysyndicate.com/
This offers
MAXIMUM GAIN MINIMUM RISK !!
UP TO 50% RETURN PER ANNUM !!
Last person I heard of offering this sort of return on investment was Bernard Madoff in The USA, and we all know where he is heading, and how safe your money would have been.
As the Financial Services Authority warns, if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.
A little like pyramid or Ponzi schemes.
There seems to be a pattern emerging here.
No further comment from Mr Sawyer about "slander" or defamation of character ?
I actually think that "The Property Syndicate" should be registered with the FSA, and that it is illegal to operate a "collective investment scheme" in the UK without doing so.
Mr Sawyer quotes some very legal sounding stuff about "qualified investors", which is of no relevance to the UK regulations, and doesn't exclude them in any way from their obligation to be registered.
Caution to Mr Sawyer, I do have some considerable expertise in this area. But bring on the debate, I'm enjoying it.
He was also suggesting recently at his TPA site that people should take out second and even third charges against their homes to invest in BTL.
Maybe not the best advice I have ever seen.
Looking at his main customers at Pushinternet, they seem to be a firm of debt councillors, Dawson White, Chiltern Debt Management etc (all owned by one company) based in the same building in Sale, Manchester as TPA are.
It looks like TPA could be a great source of customers for them !!
Phil
12
Oliver wrote this on 2009-03-10 20:21:43
That’s a bit like saying don’t deal with Richard Branson because Virgin has more than one business.
Is this guy a crook that’s the question? I can’t see why he is. He’s too upfront and the web company seem very good at what they do.
I agree with the last post about the timing of the complaints because a lot of wishful thinkers became amateur landlords in those years.
I mean fancy buying a property without going to look at the area first??? That’s really dumb. People should do their own research before buying anything.
The rest is ancient history posted by somebody with an obvious gripe. Sorry mate but you don’t do yourself any favours by reprinting other peoples complaints when you don’t have one yourself. Quite sad really.
Is this guy a crook that’s the question? I can’t see why he is. He’s too upfront and the web company seem very good at what they do.
I agree with the last post about the timing of the complaints because a lot of wishful thinkers became amateur landlords in those years.
I mean fancy buying a property without going to look at the area first??? That’s really dumb. People should do their own research before buying anything.
The rest is ancient history posted by somebody with an obvious gripe. Sorry mate but you don’t do yourself any favours by reprinting other peoples complaints when you don’t have one yourself. Quite sad really.
13
john palmer wrote this on 2009-03-11 09:06:27
i agree with some of olivers points. i dont agree with using richard branson as a comparison tho, theres a big diffrence, virgin is a massive company!!! i was merely making a reference to a group of about 8 people with two diffrent job titles each, my point wasnt to slag them off, it was just to highlight the fact that they couldnt possibly give 100% to their property business if they have an internet company aswell, however, if their were 20 people, 10 on property for example and 10 on the internet business, then i wouldnt have even mentioned it! i dont think richard branson pilots clock off and then go and do a shift in one of his record shops!!(sorry if i sounded cynincal oliver, didnt mean to, and i hope ive made my point clearer.
john
john
14
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-11 11:50:45
Oliver asked an important question.
Is this guy a crook ?
That none of us know for certain, and I don't have a gripe with him or the company personally.
One thing is clear though, he doesn't tell the truth, and that reflects very badly on him and his company.
I quote from Mr Sawyer's post.
"and although I didn’t ask to be included, I’m even in the 2009 edition of Who’s Who"
I am sat in front of the current edition of Who's Who 2009 161st annual edition "the recognised source book of information on people of interest in all fields"
Mark Sawyer does not appear in it !!
If he would lie about something so fundamental, I think we can all assume that he would lie about almost anything.
A wide berth and barge pole come to mind.
It is blogging sites like this that find out the truth about companies and their owners, and make it easier for people to avoid the painful results of doing business with them.
Keep up the good work.
Phil
Is this guy a crook ?
That none of us know for certain, and I don't have a gripe with him or the company personally.
One thing is clear though, he doesn't tell the truth, and that reflects very badly on him and his company.
I quote from Mr Sawyer's post.
"and although I didn’t ask to be included, I’m even in the 2009 edition of Who’s Who"
I am sat in front of the current edition of Who's Who 2009 161st annual edition "the recognised source book of information on people of interest in all fields"
Mark Sawyer does not appear in it !!
If he would lie about something so fundamental, I think we can all assume that he would lie about almost anything.
A wide berth and barge pole come to mind.
It is blogging sites like this that find out the truth about companies and their owners, and make it easier for people to avoid the painful results of doing business with them.
Keep up the good work.
Phil
15
Claire Smith wrote this on 2009-03-11 12:33:53
I think it's probably you Phil that's telling lies and I believe you do personally have a gripe, otherwise why would you be writing so much about the subject. You're actually becoming boring do you know that! I've just done a quick who's who search on google - go to www.whoswho.co.uk and search on their database and you'll find Mark Sawyer there!
16
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-11 14:10:54
I suggest you go and look up your name in the actual publication "Who's who"
http://www.ukwhoswho.com/search/quick?quicksearch=Mark+Sawyer
published by Oxford University Press
You know the one, unless you are lacking a decent education. It contains the names of the great and good.
If you are going to quote your inclusion in a publication, please use the publications real name, which would be one of the following:
Who's who Britain’s Business Elite
Who's who Fastest Growing Companies
Who's who Britain's Youngest Directors
Who's who Britain’s Business Elite –
Who's who Young Business Leaders 2009
Not "Who's who"
That title belongs to the Oxford University Press and the publishers A & C Black.
http://www.ukwhoswho.com/search/quick?quicksearch=Mark+Sawyer
published by Oxford University Press
You know the one, unless you are lacking a decent education. It contains the names of the great and good.
If you are going to quote your inclusion in a publication, please use the publications real name, which would be one of the following:
Who's who Britain’s Business Elite
Who's who Fastest Growing Companies
Who's who Britain's Youngest Directors
Who's who Britain’s Business Elite –
Who's who Young Business Leaders 2009
Not "Who's who"
That title belongs to the Oxford University Press and the publishers A & C Black.
17
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-11 14:54:18
Who's Who of Britain's Business Elite: Business Leaders of the Millennium 2009 PUBLICATION DUE MARCH 2009
So you are included in a publication that isn't even published yet ?
Perhaps you can quote to us all what your entry actually says ?
Phil
So you are included in a publication that isn't even published yet ?
Perhaps you can quote to us all what your entry actually says ?
Phil
18
Mark Sawyer wrote this on 2009-03-11 18:11:25
My thanks to John, Clair and Oliver for pointing out the obvious.
I really should not have to make this post, but just in case anyone really gives a damn, here goes...
In answer to the last post, here is what Phil does not want to see:
http://www.thepropertyassociation.com/documents/WhosWho.pdf
If anyone would like to visit our office, you can see the original. Why don't you pop in Phil? We will even make you a cup of tea while you read it.
Contrary to the above slander, I do not lie and I have nothing to hide.
I have no criminal record and I have never been tried for a crime...ever.
I pay my taxes and I don't hide behind false identities, aliases or fake email addresses, like some I could mention.
Furthermore, contrary to speculation on this page, my company has never had a single court judgement in its six year history. Not on...ever. By all means check that out before ‘Phil’ (or your resident webmaster) makes one up.
Take three and a half reams of paper and stand them one on top of the other. That’s how many clients TPA has. 1,750 customers around the world. Do I know them personally? Of course not. Would you expect me to personally handle every problem? Of course not. Does any business have 100% satisfaction from its customers? Of course not.
I’m certainly not perfect and I often make mistakes, but I don’t wear my underpants over my trousers and I simply cannot solve every problem that comes up.
I care for my staff, my business colleagues and (believe it or not) our customers. I’ve even been on holiday with some of them.
I am passionate about life and I work very hard. I seek opportunity during hard times and I’m prepared to diversify if needed. I love my wife and children and I enjoy cooking.
Is there anything else anyone wants to know?
There is a lot I would like to say about the complaints on this page and there is much I would like to say about the archive material that has been dredged up about me. There are two sides to every story, but right now I don't really care what anyone thinks.
Perhaps the ever fair Phil will be pleased to know that I have recently lost my beautiful 29 year old daughter in a tragic accident. Therefore, I have far more important things to agonise about than his pathetic attack on my integrity. Or perhaps he also needs to see a scan of her death certificate just in case I'm 'lying' for heaven's sake.
Either way its water off a duck’s back. He's made his mind up, so let him get on with it.
Anyway, the mysterious 'Phil' is slowly revealing his true motives and making a fool of himself in the process. He now splits hairs in an attempt to cover up his outright defamation of character. He cares nothing about fact and thrives only on speculation, rumour and gossip, so let him carry on at his own peril. His business vigilante mentality will eventually get the better of him.
If anyone reading this page before it disappears really cares enough to discuss any of the stuff raised by this unfortunate man, then please contact me personally on 0161 926 0670. I will be happy to oblige.
This is all I have to say on the matter.
Mark Sawyer
I really should not have to make this post, but just in case anyone really gives a damn, here goes...
In answer to the last post, here is what Phil does not want to see:
http://www.thepropertyassociation.com/documents/WhosWho.pdf
If anyone would like to visit our office, you can see the original. Why don't you pop in Phil? We will even make you a cup of tea while you read it.
Contrary to the above slander, I do not lie and I have nothing to hide.
I have no criminal record and I have never been tried for a crime...ever.
I pay my taxes and I don't hide behind false identities, aliases or fake email addresses, like some I could mention.
Furthermore, contrary to speculation on this page, my company has never had a single court judgement in its six year history. Not on...ever. By all means check that out before ‘Phil’ (or your resident webmaster) makes one up.
Take three and a half reams of paper and stand them one on top of the other. That’s how many clients TPA has. 1,750 customers around the world. Do I know them personally? Of course not. Would you expect me to personally handle every problem? Of course not. Does any business have 100% satisfaction from its customers? Of course not.
I’m certainly not perfect and I often make mistakes, but I don’t wear my underpants over my trousers and I simply cannot solve every problem that comes up.
I care for my staff, my business colleagues and (believe it or not) our customers. I’ve even been on holiday with some of them.
I am passionate about life and I work very hard. I seek opportunity during hard times and I’m prepared to diversify if needed. I love my wife and children and I enjoy cooking.
Is there anything else anyone wants to know?
There is a lot I would like to say about the complaints on this page and there is much I would like to say about the archive material that has been dredged up about me. There are two sides to every story, but right now I don't really care what anyone thinks.
Perhaps the ever fair Phil will be pleased to know that I have recently lost my beautiful 29 year old daughter in a tragic accident. Therefore, I have far more important things to agonise about than his pathetic attack on my integrity. Or perhaps he also needs to see a scan of her death certificate just in case I'm 'lying' for heaven's sake.
Either way its water off a duck’s back. He's made his mind up, so let him get on with it.
Anyway, the mysterious 'Phil' is slowly revealing his true motives and making a fool of himself in the process. He now splits hairs in an attempt to cover up his outright defamation of character. He cares nothing about fact and thrives only on speculation, rumour and gossip, so let him carry on at his own peril. His business vigilante mentality will eventually get the better of him.
If anyone reading this page before it disappears really cares enough to discuss any of the stuff raised by this unfortunate man, then please contact me personally on 0161 926 0670. I will be happy to oblige.
This is all I have to say on the matter.
Mark Sawyer
19
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-11 18:17:56
Quote from "The Who’s Who of Britain’s Business Leaders of the Millennium 2009"
includes individuals who direct and manage a wide variety of successful businesses in the UK, formed since 1st January 2000. Businesses have been selected on a range of criteria which, we believe, set them apart from their contemporaries.
Our objective is to highlight those individuals who have set up a company in the new millennium that has achieved a strong net worth and shown growth over the last three years.
A minimum bench mark has been set at £100,000 net worth at the last financial year end. Growth has been defined as an increase in net worth over the last three years. 1,828,310 companies have been incorporated between the 1/1/00 and the 31/3/06.111,909 of these companies have a net worth of £100,000 or more as detailed by their latest set of audited accounts.
15,158 of these companies were deleted from our master list due to their accounts not being filed on time with Companies House. This reduced our master list to 96,751 companies.
After removing the companies which have a reduction in shareholders funds and where net worth has decreased over the last 3 years, we have a final list of 54,509 qualifying Companies.
DUE FOR PUBLICATION – MARCH 2009
end quote
So they trawled companies house records and have come up with 54,509 companies and all the listed directors.
What a landmark achievement to be included in this publication !
Sir Richard Branson isn't even listed in it ! but perhaps that's due to the fact that he appears in the real "Who's who"
Phil
includes individuals who direct and manage a wide variety of successful businesses in the UK, formed since 1st January 2000. Businesses have been selected on a range of criteria which, we believe, set them apart from their contemporaries.
Our objective is to highlight those individuals who have set up a company in the new millennium that has achieved a strong net worth and shown growth over the last three years.
A minimum bench mark has been set at £100,000 net worth at the last financial year end. Growth has been defined as an increase in net worth over the last three years. 1,828,310 companies have been incorporated between the 1/1/00 and the 31/3/06.111,909 of these companies have a net worth of £100,000 or more as detailed by their latest set of audited accounts.
15,158 of these companies were deleted from our master list due to their accounts not being filed on time with Companies House. This reduced our master list to 96,751 companies.
After removing the companies which have a reduction in shareholders funds and where net worth has decreased over the last 3 years, we have a final list of 54,509 qualifying Companies.
DUE FOR PUBLICATION – MARCH 2009
end quote
So they trawled companies house records and have come up with 54,509 companies and all the listed directors.
What a landmark achievement to be included in this publication !
Sir Richard Branson isn't even listed in it ! but perhaps that's due to the fact that he appears in the real "Who's who"
Phil
20
Oliver wrote this on 2009-03-11 21:31:03
Sorry, but you are just an idiot with an axe to grind. What the hell has he done to upset you?
21
MuggedUP wrote this on 2009-03-11 22:15:12
Oh dear Phil looks like you got proper mugged up there fella. Let us know if you take Mark up on the offer and have a cupper and a browse of 'that' book, in his office.
I'd
..
..
..
wait for it
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..
..
..
You'll love this one
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..
..
..
..
..
put my HOUSE on it that you don't take him up on the offer!
Ho Ho Ho
I'd
..
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..
wait for it
..
..
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You'll love this one
..
..
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put my HOUSE on it that you don't take him up on the offer!
Ho Ho Ho
22
john palmer wrote this on 2009-03-11 22:55:44
everytime someone adds to this thread i get an email, and i must admit, it all seems to be getting out of hand, im sorry if ive added to this, i was just researching property investment and came accross what "seemed" to be some advice/debate on what not to do when buying property, and i was merely adding my two pence worth, but now its turned a bit nasty. i hope you people can sort out your diffrences (im assuming you know each other).
regards
john (gracefully bowing out of this debate).
regards
john (gracefully bowing out of this debate).
23
Phil wrote this on 2009-07-17 16:01:00
The Property Association have been heavily involved in the promotion of an investment scheme called 'Currency Plan' run by Upton & Co which has been closed down by the FSA.
Many investors look likely to lose thousands of pounds, some 100's of thousands.
The scheme was promoted by The Property Association as being FSA regulated, it wasn't.
The Property Association made huge amounts on introduction fees selling this scheme.
Many investors look likely to lose thousands of pounds, some 100's of thousands.
The scheme was promoted by The Property Association as being FSA regulated, it wasn't.
The Property Association made huge amounts on introduction fees selling this scheme.
24
Phil wrote this on 2009-07-17 16:18:01
More info here:
http://www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/4/816464/ShowThread.aspx
http://www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/4/816464/ShowThread.aspx
25
anonymous wrote this on 2009-07-18 21:46:51
You can search for the directors of the Property Association at Companies House, The Property Association is the trading name of Eurproperty Ltd. Mr Mark Sawyer of the Property Association has a long history of unhappy clients, see The Blagger.com and http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/2007/07/11/be-careful-of-property-associations/#comment-57715
Not sure, but shouldn't The Property Association have been FSA registered themselves to be recommending investment products ? I think you should pursue that angle with the FSA
Not sure, but shouldn't The Property Association have been FSA registered themselves to be recommending investment products ? I think you should pursue that angle with the FSA
26
anonymous wrote this on 2009-07-18 21:55:37
My apologies for the previous post, I was meant to include the fact that I received the link to this site from another site dedicated to people who have been scammed recently. The comments above were actually someone else’s and not mine.
I do not wish to reveal my name as I am currently starting legal action against the company in question. (That will be your 1st then Mr Sawyer!!) I am very unhappy with the LIES that I HAVE been told by people working for this company, especially by Mr Sawyer's son.
This blog seems to have got out of hand. I do not wish to comment on the arguments between some of you, but rather I would like to refer to the original post.
I have had quite a lot of dealings with the Property Association over the last year. I invested a lot of hard earnt money and subsequently lost huge amounts. It's funny, but Mr Sawyer and Co aren't so quick to invite ME round for coffee when I try (in vain) to contact them. They only send the usual emails distancing themselves from any responsibility regarding my complaints.
I would also like to add that whilst it is very sad for anyone to lose any family member in any circumstances, the fact you lost a family member Mr Sawyer won't change the fact that you are a devious, underhanded cheat. No amount of sob stories will wash for those that have been ripped off by your company Mr Sawyer. I also think it is rather bad taste to use this as a way of gaining advantage or personal credibility.
May your lost family member rest in peace. See you in court Mr Sawyer.
I do not wish to reveal my name as I am currently starting legal action against the company in question. (That will be your 1st then Mr Sawyer!!) I am very unhappy with the LIES that I HAVE been told by people working for this company, especially by Mr Sawyer's son.
This blog seems to have got out of hand. I do not wish to comment on the arguments between some of you, but rather I would like to refer to the original post.
I have had quite a lot of dealings with the Property Association over the last year. I invested a lot of hard earnt money and subsequently lost huge amounts. It's funny, but Mr Sawyer and Co aren't so quick to invite ME round for coffee when I try (in vain) to contact them. They only send the usual emails distancing themselves from any responsibility regarding my complaints.
I would also like to add that whilst it is very sad for anyone to lose any family member in any circumstances, the fact you lost a family member Mr Sawyer won't change the fact that you are a devious, underhanded cheat. No amount of sob stories will wash for those that have been ripped off by your company Mr Sawyer. I also think it is rather bad taste to use this as a way of gaining advantage or personal credibility.
May your lost family member rest in peace. See you in court Mr Sawyer.
27
Oliver wrote this on 2009-07-24 20:13:40
Refer to the death of a daughter as a sob story is very dangerous. I don't support this man if he is a cheat but it will be found out in the proper way, not by you being a saddo. You are obviously a coward hiding behind a false identity. I hope other people pick up on this and complain to Google as i intend to because the links above do not work, they just try to get you to sign up for another web site. Niced try whoever you are.
Be carful that your post doesn't backfire in court. If I was this bloke I would be building my own case out of what you have just said.
Be carful that your post doesn't backfire in court. If I was this bloke I would be building my own case out of what you have just said.
28
Phil wrote this on 2009-07-27 09:16:11
The forum was still available until very recently, see reprint below.
Singing Pig - Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or ...
8 posts - 6 authors - Last post: 28 Mar
Has anybody dealt with Upton and Co, accountants in West Yorkshire, or been introduced to their "risk free" or "low risk" currency plan? ...
www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/thread/708348.aspx
30 Jan 2009, 8:32 PM 708348
Gareth Thomas
Joined on 22 Dec 2004
London
Posts 48
Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Has anybody dealt with Upton and Co, accountants in West Yorkshire, or been introduced to their "risk free" or "low risk" currency plan?
Please post your experiences here. A firm called Property Investment Deals has sent me some info and I'm not sure if this is a scam or not.
Thanks.
Changing Fortunes Property Investment Finance
Closed bridging finance to property investors.
Mob : 07971 874 147
Mail: gareth@changingfortunes.co.uk
Report abuse
04 Feb 2009, 2:42 PM 711245 in reply to 708348
Leon De Jager
Joined on 04 Feb 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
I have been offered the same deal by the Peter Parfait news letter and property investment tips. Aparently the funds are regulated by the FSA as well!
I would also be interested in any experience with this deal. Anyone?
Report abuse
23 Mar 2009, 8:56 PM 744143 in reply to 708348
Kerry Johnston
Joined on 23 Mar 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
I invested £1000 in the currency plan in January 09, I had an e-mail last week saying that all the funds had been frozen by the FSA and will be dispersed by them when as and when they see fit
Report abuse
23 Mar 2009, 9:45 PM 744173 in reply to 744143
Gareth Thomas
Joined on 22 Dec 2004
London
Posts 48
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Hi Kerry,
I hope that means you've not lost your funds. Why has the FSA got involved in this investment scheme?
Changing Fortunes Property Investment Finance
Closed bridging finance to property investors.
Mob : 07971 874 147
Mail: gareth@changingfortunes.co.uk
Report abuse
24 Mar 2009, 7:54 AM 744416 in reply to 744173
Kerry Johnston
Joined on 23 Mar 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
So do I . We have no idea why the FSA is involved (as the paperwork said it was approved by FSA) my notification came from my introducer Austen Sawyer with no explanation. I will wait a few weeks and then may contact the FSA and see what is going on.
Report abuse
24 Mar 2009, 11:08 AM 744524 in reply to 744416
Bill McCallum
Joined on 11 Feb 2008
Dorset (formely Middlesbrough)
Posts 269
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
A quick Search of the FSA web site does not show anything to do with Upton & Co, usually they issue warnings about problems companies or scams.
for example
Warning – The Financial Associate (TFA) Limited
Customers who took out a mortgage, or are in the process or taking out a mortgage, through The Financial Associate (TFA) Limited (based in Sidcup) should check that the mortgage advance is for the amount that they applied for in their original mortgage application.
(11/03/2009)
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/home.do
Bill McCallum
mccallum_bill at hotmail.com
Report abuse
27 Mar 2009, 3:42 PM 747270 in reply to 744524
Investor One
Joined on 22 Mar 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Awaiting further information
Report abuse
28 Mar 2009, 4:27 AM 747610 in reply to 747270
Juu pursmason
Joined on 28 Mar 2009
Kensington
Posts 16
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
the FSA needs to really crack down on these companies and take action!
Regards
J
Report abuse
Singing Pig - Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or ...
8 posts - 6 authors - Last post: 28 Mar
Has anybody dealt with Upton and Co, accountants in West Yorkshire, or been introduced to their "risk free" or "low risk" currency plan? ...
www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/thread/708348.aspx
30 Jan 2009, 8:32 PM 708348
Gareth Thomas
Joined on 22 Dec 2004
London
Posts 48
Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Has anybody dealt with Upton and Co, accountants in West Yorkshire, or been introduced to their "risk free" or "low risk" currency plan?
Please post your experiences here. A firm called Property Investment Deals has sent me some info and I'm not sure if this is a scam or not.
Thanks.
Changing Fortunes Property Investment Finance
Closed bridging finance to property investors.
Mob : 07971 874 147
Mail: gareth@changingfortunes.co.uk
Report abuse
04 Feb 2009, 2:42 PM 711245 in reply to 708348
Leon De Jager
Joined on 04 Feb 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
I have been offered the same deal by the Peter Parfait news letter and property investment tips. Aparently the funds are regulated by the FSA as well!
I would also be interested in any experience with this deal. Anyone?
Report abuse
23 Mar 2009, 8:56 PM 744143 in reply to 708348
Kerry Johnston
Joined on 23 Mar 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
I invested £1000 in the currency plan in January 09, I had an e-mail last week saying that all the funds had been frozen by the FSA and will be dispersed by them when as and when they see fit
Report abuse
23 Mar 2009, 9:45 PM 744173 in reply to 744143
Gareth Thomas
Joined on 22 Dec 2004
London
Posts 48
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Hi Kerry,
I hope that means you've not lost your funds. Why has the FSA got involved in this investment scheme?
Changing Fortunes Property Investment Finance
Closed bridging finance to property investors.
Mob : 07971 874 147
Mail: gareth@changingfortunes.co.uk
Report abuse
24 Mar 2009, 7:54 AM 744416 in reply to 744173
Kerry Johnston
Joined on 23 Mar 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
So do I . We have no idea why the FSA is involved (as the paperwork said it was approved by FSA) my notification came from my introducer Austen Sawyer with no explanation. I will wait a few weeks and then may contact the FSA and see what is going on.
Report abuse
24 Mar 2009, 11:08 AM 744524 in reply to 744416
Bill McCallum
Joined on 11 Feb 2008
Dorset (formely Middlesbrough)
Posts 269
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
A quick Search of the FSA web site does not show anything to do with Upton & Co, usually they issue warnings about problems companies or scams.
for example
Warning – The Financial Associate (TFA) Limited
Customers who took out a mortgage, or are in the process or taking out a mortgage, through The Financial Associate (TFA) Limited (based in Sidcup) should check that the mortgage advance is for the amount that they applied for in their original mortgage application.
(11/03/2009)
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/home.do
Bill McCallum
mccallum_bill at hotmail.com
Report abuse
27 Mar 2009, 3:42 PM 747270 in reply to 744524
Investor One
Joined on 22 Mar 2009
Posts 4
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Awaiting further information
Report abuse
28 Mar 2009, 4:27 AM 747610 in reply to 747270
Juu pursmason
Joined on 28 Mar 2009
Kensington
Posts 16
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
the FSA needs to really crack down on these companies and take action!
Regards
J
Report abuse
29
Phil wrote this on 2009-07-28 08:40:55
More from the missing Singing Pig Forum:
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
breen:
I have also been scamed by this. I invested on the recommendation of Austen Sawyer of the Property Association. I am absoultly raging with both Mr Sawyer and Mr Upton and feel that if 100% of funds are not returened we should collectively go for action against both.
Has anyone heard from Mr Sawyer?
Both these organisations should be closed ASAP!!!
I wouldn't hold out any hope of that I'm afraid. Mr Sawyer and Co have a history of dodgy business practises and ofcourse coupled with that, a history of avoiding the consequences. These people need to be brought to justice as quickly as possible. People have invested hard earnt money into this scam and it's people like the Sawyers who are sitting back and enjoying the profit from this.
Report abuse
19 Jul 2009, 12:55 PM 816983 in reply to 816877
Adrian Allan
Joined on 24 Dec 2008
Posts 8
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Breen
It seems that the Property Association and the likes of Peter Parfait were being paid 15% !! introduction fees from Uptons scheme.
In the case of the poor guy who invested 600k, thats 90k of his money.
They are certainly sitting pretty, and will simply duck blame as usual, they have another company called Push Internet Marketing operating out of the same premises in Marsland House, Sale.
http://www.pushinternetmarketing.co.uk/
This site has numerous blogs on it, perhaps people should start making comments here, this may force a response.
Report abuse
19 Jul 2009, 1:13 PM 816984 in reply to 816983
Adrian Allan
Joined on 24 Dec 2008
Posts 8
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
The Cameron Farley scheme from Scotland that Upton modeled his currency fund on has failed to return anything to any investors, they have lost everything. On this evidence there doesn't seem to be much hope.
see:
http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/2007/07/11/be-careful-of-property-associations/
This company is run by a guy that has previously been the UK representative of a gold coin pyramid scam that was banned by the DTI. He also ran a company that was prosecuted by Hampshire police for fraudulent trading. He was also previously a representative of a MLM water filter company that famously went bust.
Seems that property investment attracts these type of people.
Mr Sawyer replied:
Report abuse
20 hours, 56 minutes ago 817029 in reply to 816984
A B
Joined on 18 Jul 2009
Posts 2
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
adrianallan:
The Cameron Farley scheme from Scotland that Upton modeled his currency fund on has failed to return anything to any investors, they have lost everything. On this evidence there doesn't seem to be much hope.
see:
http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/2007/07/11/be-careful-of-property-associations/
This company is run by a guy that has previously been the UK representative of a gold coin pyramid scam that was banned by the DTI. He also ran a company that was prosecuted by Hampshire police for fraudulent trading. He was also previously a representative of a MLM water filter company that famously went bust.
Seems that property investment attracts these type of people.
I have been to this site. The comment above was specifically related to Mr Sawyer who ofcourse runs The Property Association and Europroperty amongst others. I am not sure of who the man is (Phil) who posted these comments on this site, but he seemed to have an axe to grind for whatever reason. This was a focus point for other posters who seemed to miss the point that if this 'Phil' DID have an axe to grind it means that Mr Sawyer upset him also! It would also seem that Mr Sawyer, who was trying to defend himself on that very site found some friends to try and hound out anyone questioning his business practices. After reading those comments left by Phil, I have done some investigating for myself. It is clear that, while the poster 'Phil' might not have lost any money to Mr Sawyer (I'm not sure of this though) and therefore might well be pursuing a personal vendetta, it doesn't stop his words being very much true.
Mr Sawyer replied to those comments but ofcourse failed to address the accusations levelled at him. The fact that Mr Sawyer doesn't have a criminal record means nothing as he has proven, and still is proving very clever at dodging bullets. From information given to me, it was apparently his son who took the fall when criminal charges were brought against one of their previous companies. The gold coin pyramid scheme being banned by the DTI is also true, whatever spin Mr Sawyer would like to put on it!
I have commented on the other site as I am also I victim of Mr Sawyer's tricks. This also includes his son Austen Sawyer, for whom lying comes as second nature. As I wrote on the other site, the Sawyers are swanning around living a somewhat champagne lifestyle. This is all brought about by other peoples hard earnt money ofcourse. People like these need to be stopped. We all need to act together, and sooner rather than later
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
breen:
I have also been scamed by this. I invested on the recommendation of Austen Sawyer of the Property Association. I am absoultly raging with both Mr Sawyer and Mr Upton and feel that if 100% of funds are not returened we should collectively go for action against both.
Has anyone heard from Mr Sawyer?
Both these organisations should be closed ASAP!!!
I wouldn't hold out any hope of that I'm afraid. Mr Sawyer and Co have a history of dodgy business practises and ofcourse coupled with that, a history of avoiding the consequences. These people need to be brought to justice as quickly as possible. People have invested hard earnt money into this scam and it's people like the Sawyers who are sitting back and enjoying the profit from this.
Report abuse
19 Jul 2009, 12:55 PM 816983 in reply to 816877
Adrian Allan
Joined on 24 Dec 2008
Posts 8
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
Breen
It seems that the Property Association and the likes of Peter Parfait were being paid 15% !! introduction fees from Uptons scheme.
In the case of the poor guy who invested 600k, thats 90k of his money.
They are certainly sitting pretty, and will simply duck blame as usual, they have another company called Push Internet Marketing operating out of the same premises in Marsland House, Sale.
http://www.pushinternetmarketing.co.uk/
This site has numerous blogs on it, perhaps people should start making comments here, this may force a response.
Report abuse
19 Jul 2009, 1:13 PM 816984 in reply to 816983
Adrian Allan
Joined on 24 Dec 2008
Posts 8
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
The Cameron Farley scheme from Scotland that Upton modeled his currency fund on has failed to return anything to any investors, they have lost everything. On this evidence there doesn't seem to be much hope.
see:
http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/2007/07/11/be-careful-of-property-associations/
This company is run by a guy that has previously been the UK representative of a gold coin pyramid scam that was banned by the DTI. He also ran a company that was prosecuted by Hampshire police for fraudulent trading. He was also previously a representative of a MLM water filter company that famously went bust.
Seems that property investment attracts these type of people.
Mr Sawyer replied:
Report abuse
20 hours, 56 minutes ago 817029 in reply to 816984
A B
Joined on 18 Jul 2009
Posts 2
Re: Promised returns of 4-6% per month (50% per annum or 80% compounded) !!!!
adrianallan:
The Cameron Farley scheme from Scotland that Upton modeled his currency fund on has failed to return anything to any investors, they have lost everything. On this evidence there doesn't seem to be much hope.
see:
http://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/2007/07/11/be-careful-of-property-associations/
This company is run by a guy that has previously been the UK representative of a gold coin pyramid scam that was banned by the DTI. He also ran a company that was prosecuted by Hampshire police for fraudulent trading. He was also previously a representative of a MLM water filter company that famously went bust.
Seems that property investment attracts these type of people.
I have been to this site. The comment above was specifically related to Mr Sawyer who ofcourse runs The Property Association and Europroperty amongst others. I am not sure of who the man is (Phil) who posted these comments on this site, but he seemed to have an axe to grind for whatever reason. This was a focus point for other posters who seemed to miss the point that if this 'Phil' DID have an axe to grind it means that Mr Sawyer upset him also! It would also seem that Mr Sawyer, who was trying to defend himself on that very site found some friends to try and hound out anyone questioning his business practices. After reading those comments left by Phil, I have done some investigating for myself. It is clear that, while the poster 'Phil' might not have lost any money to Mr Sawyer (I'm not sure of this though) and therefore might well be pursuing a personal vendetta, it doesn't stop his words being very much true.
Mr Sawyer replied to those comments but ofcourse failed to address the accusations levelled at him. The fact that Mr Sawyer doesn't have a criminal record means nothing as he has proven, and still is proving very clever at dodging bullets. From information given to me, it was apparently his son who took the fall when criminal charges were brought against one of their previous companies. The gold coin pyramid scheme being banned by the DTI is also true, whatever spin Mr Sawyer would like to put on it!
I have commented on the other site as I am also I victim of Mr Sawyer's tricks. This also includes his son Austen Sawyer, for whom lying comes as second nature. As I wrote on the other site, the Sawyers are swanning around living a somewhat champagne lifestyle. This is all brought about by other peoples hard earnt money ofcourse. People like these need to be stopped. We all need to act together, and sooner rather than later
30
peter rimmer wrote this on 2009-10-15 11:32:40
the currency plan had "ponzi" and "pyramid" written all over it. i'm not suprized the sawyers are involved to be honest. they had a company that had criminal charges brought against it, then a pyramid gold coin scheme that was shut down by the dti as they deemed it an "illegal lottery", and now this??? whats next from the sawyers? do they have a nigerian general who has 10 million pounds to put in a u.k. bank account? hahahaha!
31
Anon wrote this on 2009-10-15 11:39:16
Mark Sawyer has now been declared bankrupt. Yet another failed business. How convenient. I guess all the people pursuing him may well have to forget about the money they are owed.
His wife Virginia has started a business along similar lines. I suggest avoiding any type of business this family set up.
His wife Virginia has started a business along similar lines. I suggest avoiding any type of business this family set up.
32
Phil wrote this on 2009-10-15 16:43:52
I have searched all available web resources, and haven't found any official notification that either Mark Sawyer or Eurproperty Limited have been made bankrupt or been put into liquidation.
Do you have any more info on the new company established by Virginia Sawyer ?
Do you have any more info on the new company established by Virginia Sawyer ?
33
Anon wrote this on 2009-10-15 17:19:08
To be honest Phil, I have no info on that. This is information passed on to me by a colleague who is trying to start court proceedings against Mr Sawyer and his son.
As for the business his wife has started, I have no information as yet. To be honest, I wish to distance myself from the family and their shady activities. I have lost a lot of money because of them withouth much hope of seeing it returned. Therefore, chasing them around is soul destroying. Especially as the lifestyle they lead does not reflect that of someone who is struggling. Their big house and their exotic holidays are, for the likes of honest people like me who invest hard earnt money into what turn out to be no more than scams, a very bitter pill to swallow.
This is no witch hunt. This is no personal attack. This is a man who wants his money back after being tricked out of it so that someone else can live the high life. I only seek justice. Will I get it...? I won't hold my breath. Mr Sawyer and co seem well trained in dodging consequences.
As for the business his wife has started, I have no information as yet. To be honest, I wish to distance myself from the family and their shady activities. I have lost a lot of money because of them withouth much hope of seeing it returned. Therefore, chasing them around is soul destroying. Especially as the lifestyle they lead does not reflect that of someone who is struggling. Their big house and their exotic holidays are, for the likes of honest people like me who invest hard earnt money into what turn out to be no more than scams, a very bitter pill to swallow.
This is no witch hunt. This is no personal attack. This is a man who wants his money back after being tricked out of it so that someone else can live the high life. I only seek justice. Will I get it...? I won't hold my breath. Mr Sawyer and co seem well trained in dodging consequences.
34
Phil wrote this on 2009-10-15 17:37:58
Anon
It would be really good if you could keep the blog updated with any additional information you hear.
It would be really good if you could keep the blog updated with any additional information you hear.
35
razi suri wrote this on 2009-10-16 12:39:25
the fact that anyone allowed themselves to give money to this "sawyer" family amazes me! did no one research them first? come on people, its not hard to do now weve all got the internet. i had the displeasure of meeting the sawyers about twelve years ago, they tried to pitch me on some pyramid gold, money tree, ponzi crap. after speaking to him, his son, (and some other useless kids who they'd dragged into it) for no less than 5 minutes, i felt like i was being 'had off' by a bunch of less than average beach salesmen. i said to my wife these exact words as we left: "this man can only work with kids, and middle-aged down and outs". i can spot his type a mile off, listens to motivational tapes, and has pictures on the wall that state buzz words such as 'effort' and 'teamwork'. 80's americanised b*llshit!
36
Anon wrote this on 2009-10-18 18:53:05
Unfortunately Razi, unlike yourself I wasn't so on the ball when I was tricked into my dealings with the Sawyers. However I would like to state that personaly I am not a "kid" or a "middle-aged down and out". I also believe that the other good people who have contributed to this site and who have also been duped by the Sawyers would say similar. I tried to do some research on them before going into the deal, however there wasn't much to put me off at the time.
I do feel foolish for not seeing it for what it was, a scam, but at the time I believed them for whatever reasons. Ofcourse with hindsight I'm a lot wiser. The reason I post on this site is in the hope that no one else will go near them and make the same mistakes.
Maybe you are a better judge of character Razi, or maybe I'm just too trusting and naive. Either way, I hope no one makes the same mistakes I did.
I do feel foolish for not seeing it for what it was, a scam, but at the time I believed them for whatever reasons. Ofcourse with hindsight I'm a lot wiser. The reason I post on this site is in the hope that no one else will go near them and make the same mistakes.
Maybe you are a better judge of character Razi, or maybe I'm just too trusting and naive. Either way, I hope no one makes the same mistakes I did.
37
razi suri wrote this on 2009-10-19 12:28:59
to anon,
i apologise if i came across as a 'smart-ass', i really didnt intend to, and im sorry that you've lost money. full apologies, and i hope you manage to sort everything out.
razi.
i apologise if i came across as a 'smart-ass', i really didnt intend to, and im sorry that you've lost money. full apologies, and i hope you manage to sort everything out.
razi.
38
Phil wrote this on 2009-10-19 14:22:58
I can only sympathise with Anon, it is only recently that sites like this have been brave enough to publish the truth about Mark Sawyer, Virginia Sawyer and Austen Sawyer and their cronies.
And 'The Landlord' should be applauded for not giving in to the various legal threats that Mark Sawyer has made in his attempts to stop people like Anon speaking out and trying to save others from the same fate.
Isn't it amazing, even now their deals are being publicised by the likes of Peter Parfait, http://peterparfait.com/pp_recommendeddeals_fulldeal.php?t=2&d=41
You would think the Peter Parfaits of this world should know better, but then again, he was one of the people pushing the Upton 'Currency Plan' on the same site not long ago, and presumably earning a fee when people followed his very bad advice - "Contact Austen at The Property Association on 0845 060 6677 quoting Peter Parfait"
It's a bad world out there !
And 'The Landlord' should be applauded for not giving in to the various legal threats that Mark Sawyer has made in his attempts to stop people like Anon speaking out and trying to save others from the same fate.
Isn't it amazing, even now their deals are being publicised by the likes of Peter Parfait, http://peterparfait.com/pp_recommendeddeals_fulldeal.php?t=2&d=41
You would think the Peter Parfaits of this world should know better, but then again, he was one of the people pushing the Upton 'Currency Plan' on the same site not long ago, and presumably earning a fee when people followed his very bad advice - "Contact Austen at The Property Association on 0845 060 6677 quoting Peter Parfait"
It's a bad world out there !
39
Anon wrote this on 2009-10-19 19:15:06
But your ass is very much smart Razi! After all, you saw them for what they are ; ) But lets not turn this into a debate about your rear end! No offence was taken.
Thanks for the support anyway guys. I hope that sites like this one can make even a little difference.
Thanks for the support anyway guys. I hope that sites like this one can make even a little difference.
40
stephen lockley wrote this on 2009-10-20 15:09:22
after reading some of these comments, i think mr sawyer is getting a bit of a rough ride. i dont think he actually intended to fleece people of any money, it just sounds to me like he gets involved with stupid ''avoid like the plague'' scheme's and then tries to distance himself when they go belly up. my advice to him would be, stop being so naive, start acting resposibly, then you wouldnt have to wriggle out of anything, or get lots of stick on websites!
i dont know the man, and this is just my opinon, so please dont reply with a load of grief, im just calling it as i see it.
ste.
i dont know the man, and this is just my opinon, so please dont reply with a load of grief, im just calling it as i see it.
ste.
41
Investor wrote this on 2009-10-22 10:08:43
Interesting comments especially the currency plan scam as i nearly invested in this
Has anyone heard of the 'unlock your pension pot scheme ' by James Lau from WightmanFletcher McCabe financial advisors as advertised on Peter Parfait ????? and is it legit ?
Has anyone heard of the 'unlock your pension pot scheme ' by James Lau from WightmanFletcher McCabe financial advisors as advertised on Peter Parfait ????? and is it legit ?
42
Phil wrote this on 2009-10-22 15:35:01
Given the fees associated with these types of schemes you can be assured that Mr Parfait will be making a healthy fee for introducing you to this IFA.
You can release 25% of your pension pot as long as you are over 50 years of age anyway, the age limit changes next April to 55. Most IFA's can arrange this for you.
The schemes associated with releasing all your pension pot involves moving your pension fund offshore first, and then repatriating, which may make you nervous. So chose your advisor carefully.
Another FSA registered IFA offering this scheme is Mark Ainsworth based near Leeds.
www.markainsworthifa.co.uk
I haven't seen any IFA offer the full pension unlock scheme openly, as it is a current loophole that may be closed in the future.
You can release 25% of your pension pot as long as you are over 50 years of age anyway, the age limit changes next April to 55. Most IFA's can arrange this for you.
The schemes associated with releasing all your pension pot involves moving your pension fund offshore first, and then repatriating, which may make you nervous. So chose your advisor carefully.
Another FSA registered IFA offering this scheme is Mark Ainsworth based near Leeds.
www.markainsworthifa.co.uk
I haven't seen any IFA offer the full pension unlock scheme openly, as it is a current loophole that may be closed in the future.
43
Upton Accoutants Victim wrote this on 2010-01-24 13:58:11
Sadly I was conned of £10 000 in the Upton accountants scam on the recommendation of Property Investment Deals, who are no better, before I found this site.
The FSA have sent a letter, dated 21st Jan, congratulating themselves on proposing 89% recovery over 7 years!! No interest, no compensation. I am furious that I am being fobbed off in this way.
I am writing back saying this is totally unacceptable and I am also writing to Upton asking them to show some integrity and professionalism and pay the full amount. My wife and I will demonstrate outside their offices if I dont get 100% returned.
If any other victoms want to share letters and thoughts please mail me rycort@live.co.uk.
The FSA have sent a letter, dated 21st Jan, congratulating themselves on proposing 89% recovery over 7 years!! No interest, no compensation. I am furious that I am being fobbed off in this way.
I am writing back saying this is totally unacceptable and I am also writing to Upton asking them to show some integrity and professionalism and pay the full amount. My wife and I will demonstrate outside their offices if I dont get 100% returned.
If any other victoms want to share letters and thoughts please mail me rycort@live.co.uk.
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smallcheese wrote this on 2010-04-20 17:28:15
As another client of TPA and also having "benefited" from sevral of their unmisable, unbeatable property schemes I am now tryign to contact others who are in a simialr boat. There is a TPA promoted hotel investment in Yorkshire that has just gone belly up and now exposes the vacuus promises taht were made to TPA clients - fortuantely and unusually buyers have been able to make contact with each other to try urn turn the situation around. if there are others who have fallen into the TPA own a hotel room trap perhaps they would care to make contact and we can pool resources. smallcheese100 at yahoo.com
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Fred Billington wrote this on 2010-06-10 11:47:08
Mark sawyer's website www.thepropertyassociation.com is now closed, i think he's finally gone "bang". good riddance!
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max freeway wrote this on 2010-06-10 15:11:20
they are now called the prosperity association.
hahahahahaha!! another failed business for the sawyers, whats next? the propeller association!
hahahahahaha!! another failed business for the sawyers, whats next? the propeller association!
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phil wrote this on 2010-06-10 16:38:23
He seems to want to rub his victims noses in it, by posting comments like the one below, from their holiday in Antigua, in November last year.
18th November 2009
Mark & Virginia Sawyer, from Holly Bank, Sale, UK, wrote:
“What a memorable day! Lots of fun + thanks 4 grt. Weather – recommending to everyone!! Thanks x”.
http://www.miramarsailing.com/caribbean_sailing_vacations/guest_comments2.html
A nice holiday using "other peoples money", bound to please his victims.
Mind you, Antigua is famous for offshore accounts, maybe they had other reasons to visit.
18th November 2009
Mark & Virginia Sawyer, from Holly Bank, Sale, UK, wrote:
“What a memorable day! Lots of fun + thanks 4 grt. Weather – recommending to everyone!! Thanks x”.
http://www.miramarsailing.com/caribbean_sailing_vacations/guest_comments2.html
A nice holiday using "other peoples money", bound to please his victims.
Mind you, Antigua is famous for offshore accounts, maybe they had other reasons to visit.
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max freeway wrote this on 2010-06-14 13:27:47
it doesnt look like theyve got a pot to piss in anymore! also, they are touting that easytax123 shit about! in my opinion, they are basically looking for unemployable fuckwitts with a few hundred quid to throw away, who want to "pretend" they have a business! sad!
have the sawyers ever had a business that didnt fail?? theyve had enough attempts! aaaaw bless! if anything, they are try-ers!!
have the sawyers ever had a business that didnt fail?? theyve had enough attempts! aaaaw bless! if anything, they are try-ers!!
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max freeway wrote this on 2010-06-15 08:03:04
i was probably a bit harsh in my last comment, i got carried away reading all the other comments, i dont know the sawyers an i feel my comments were unfair, so id like to take them back. also can i apologise for the language i used. hope i didnt offend anyone.
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Anon wrote this on 2010-06-15 14:00:41
Max, I wouldn't worry about it. No ammount of harsh comments or indeed bad language could upset anyone quite as much as the business practices of the Sawyers and co. I think everyone appreciates the fact that many have been hurt by the dishonesty of the Sawyers, and blogs like this are a vent for the anger that builds up due to that.
To laugh at the fall of such people is normal. To want the fall of such people is more so. I know I certainly want the latter and most certainly will be doing the first, if indeed the Sawyers do hit rock bottom. I won't hold my breath though. As history provided by Phil shows, Mr Sawyer and co move on from one scam to another with considerable ease, without a care for their victims.
I see this blog keeps rumbling on. I wonder where Mr Mark Sawyer and Mr Austen Sawyers lies end. That's ofcourse not to forget Mrs Virginia Sawyer who by all accounts has now set up her own business. I wonder where thats going!
Comments like your Max are needed if people are going to get smart to cheats like the Sawyers.
To laugh at the fall of such people is normal. To want the fall of such people is more so. I know I certainly want the latter and most certainly will be doing the first, if indeed the Sawyers do hit rock bottom. I won't hold my breath though. As history provided by Phil shows, Mr Sawyer and co move on from one scam to another with considerable ease, without a care for their victims.
I see this blog keeps rumbling on. I wonder where Mr Mark Sawyer and Mr Austen Sawyers lies end. That's ofcourse not to forget Mrs Virginia Sawyer who by all accounts has now set up her own business. I wonder where thats going!
Comments like your Max are needed if people are going to get smart to cheats like the Sawyers.
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phil wrote this on 2010-06-15 17:47:55
Max
You may have actually done everybody a big favour, identified the latest potential venture from Mark Sawyer.
BE WARNED
The Prosperity Association
www.theprosperityassociation.com
or visit via the back door - http://www.theprosperityassociation.com/reports/ET123.pdf
On past evidence it won't be his clients who prosper.
At least forearmed is forewarned.
Apparently here’s what you need to do to take advantage of his latest, I'll take your money scheme -
quote (from his latest venture)
"Phone Mark Sawyer on 0161 926 0674 (local rate call) to arrange your no obligation Easytax123 Profit System meeting with us or... Email EasyTax123@TheProsperityAssociation.com and within 24 hours we’ll call you directly"
Alternatively you could-
If you've never had the misfortune of dealing with him -
Never call or e-mail him - ever
If you have been unfortunate enough to have crossed paths with him (heaven forbid)
Just call or e-mail him to ask for your money back !
You may have actually done everybody a big favour, identified the latest potential venture from Mark Sawyer.
BE WARNED
The Prosperity Association
www.theprosperityassociation.com
or visit via the back door - http://www.theprosperityassociation.com/reports/ET123.pdf
On past evidence it won't be his clients who prosper.
At least forearmed is forewarned.
Apparently here’s what you need to do to take advantage of his latest, I'll take your money scheme -
quote (from his latest venture)
"Phone Mark Sawyer on 0161 926 0674 (local rate call) to arrange your no obligation Easytax123 Profit System meeting with us or... Email EasyTax123@TheProsperityAssociation.com and within 24 hours we’ll call you directly"
Alternatively you could-
If you've never had the misfortune of dealing with him -
Never call or e-mail him - ever
If you have been unfortunate enough to have crossed paths with him (heaven forbid)
Just call or e-mail him to ask for your money back !
52
anon wrote this on 2010-06-15 22:22:52
Reading over this from the start and it become clear that whoever Phil is? He has been telling a few porkies...
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-11 11:50:45
.. and I don't have a gripe with him or the company personally.
And yet over a year on Phil, you are the main guy replying on this blog post and I'd even go as far to say getting a little bit stalky! lol (grabing personal holiday snaps of people is a little bit extreme! lol)
Of the 52 replies, Phil has made just under half of them.
Not really the kind of actions of someone who "doesn't have a gripe"
Spill the beans Phil, what's happened to you?
You know it feels good to get things off your chest every once and a while.
I'd suggest you have a cold beer, put your feet up and try and enjoy the world cup! Come on England!
Phil wrote this on 2009-03-11 11:50:45
.. and I don't have a gripe with him or the company personally.
And yet over a year on Phil, you are the main guy replying on this blog post and I'd even go as far to say getting a little bit stalky! lol (grabing personal holiday snaps of people is a little bit extreme! lol)
Of the 52 replies, Phil has made just under half of them.
Not really the kind of actions of someone who "doesn't have a gripe"
Spill the beans Phil, what's happened to you?
You know it feels good to get things off your chest every once and a while.
I'd suggest you have a cold beer, put your feet up and try and enjoy the world cup! Come on England!
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phil wrote this on 2010-06-16 14:43:35
Anon
I'm taking your advice, I've got my feet up with a few cold beers, watching the world cup.
I'm taking your advice, I've got my feet up with a few cold beers, watching the world cup.
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Please leave a comment
I initially started this website because I wanted to document my every step from property idiot to property landlord,
in hope that people would find my site and help me along the way. I literally didn't have a clue about being a landlord
when I started this website.
In April 2007 we had a valuation for mortgage purpose. The valuation came in at 160k. We had subsequent valuations done by local estate agents and they came in at 155k - 160k . At this point we realised we had been conned. We have rescinded the contract but both the property association and mayfair developments have refused to refund the money we have paid them. We are out of pocket by 12k so far and have been told we may be sued for another 9k by the developers.
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